Xbox 360: Natal slow latency or delay analysis
It seems like more information about project Natal has been revealed during CES than the whole of last year. With Microsoft announcing that the main processor was taken out recently, the device may have its work cut out.
According to Microsoft the Natal camera has about a 100 millisecond latency or delay before it detects movement. The 100 milliseconds delay happens only when the game runs at 30 fps. The delay gets worse when games run at 60 fps, increasing the latency to 200 milliseconds.
Just how bad is 100 milliseconds delay you ask? Digital Foundry via Eurogamer has an analysis video showing exactly the impact of this delay.
Judging from the video it seems the latency is also adversely effected by speed. The faster you move your limbs the greater the delay becomes. This may mean that games developed specifically for Natal may require you to move slowly to ensure optimal playability.
Microsoft has also indicated that with the processor taken out of Natal, the developers have targeted to achieve the same 100 ms latency for 30 fps games using the Xbox 360’s processor. This leads me to believe that the latency issue maybe due to the sensors on the Natal camera rather than an issue with computational processing power.
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January 16th, 2010
That’s going to suck.
January 16th, 2010
LoL, NATAL is a disaster waiting to happen that’s what happens to Microsoft for being such a COPYCAT.
CarlB is again trying to defy the true LMFAO and he fails miserably like always. The video proves NATAL is having major issues and we always see videos Sony show cases demos for everyone for many shit.
January 16th, 2010
CarlB defiantly defending the 360 and Natal AGAIN against the Evil Mike Ferro – ps3 fanboy extraordinaire ….. LOL.
Regardless of your fact list, the shown lag is shithouse and if that is the same as the finished product, I won’t be shelling out my cash for it (same can be said for the Sony “Wand”)
Additionally, so what if it’s sensing and mapping the entire body, if it can’t do it properly, don’t bother and just concentrate on the arms and hands then.
In saying that, if they can refine it for release, it should be awesome.
January 16th, 2010
“CarlB defiantly defending the 360 and Natal AGAIN”
Just quoting source articles and showing the rest of the story AGAIN. And Mike’s just human, NOT evil, cut the guy some slack will ya?
“the shown lag is shithouse”
Considering it is a 5th of a second latency, it’s no surprise slowing it down 5X would make it look worse than it really is. Not to mention the target latency is now stated to be 100ms, or a tenth of a second, instead.
That said, I’m still not sold on Natal until I see what will be available at retail, and I doubt it will sell the “millions” quoted earlier before the holidays are over this year, though 70-80% of publishers on board already is a good sign there might, just might, be something more than a gimmick game to come out for it.
January 16th, 2010
LOL the first natal title is “Extreme Tai Chi”
January 16th, 2010
LOL 1.3 Billion Chinese people can’t be wrong.
January 16th, 2010
A 5th of a second, while doesn’t sound much, is pretty noticeable. It would be the same annoyance when your video performance lags to a noticeable level.
Even the lag on the Wii is annoying.
You are right though, the finish product will be the telling tale !!
January 16th, 2010
“A 5th of a second, while doesn’t sound much, is pretty noticeable.”
Agreed. Good thing devs are targeting a tenth of a second instead, and this is just the first gen product. Next gen should be down considerably, as well as have more detailed perception.
January 16th, 2010
NATAL is already a failure LMFAO they got nothing to help Xbox 360 Microsoft better start plan B or C. Sony at least got their own support aka must have exclsuives own by them never going to PC or Xbox 360 or even Wii LoL. Microsoft is basically relying a lot on that gay shit lucky i don’t care about my Xbox and i wont updated anymore.
January 16th, 2010
Well at least, in a historical stand point, Microsoft is doing the right thing compared to what Nintendo did with the cartridge for the N64 and the mini disc for the Gamecube. Microsoft at least know when to dance with the times and keep up withe Jones’. Its all business even if Microsoft be branded as thick faced shameless copy cat at the end of the day it’s all business.
This is where American sportsmanship comes to play & I like this attitude. Microsoft adopted the Sony’s DVD without a second thought and was successfully in the game.
Nintendo with its bruised ego was too prideful to jump on the CD & DVD format and it paid the price for two gemerations. And when it did with the Wii Optical Disc *cough* a.k.a. DVD things got pretty rosy.
I hope the same rosy effect happens to 360 & PS3.
Motion Control is the sign of the times. (Six-axis is a half-assed effort Sony.) So bottom line Natal or PS3 Wand is a no brainer.
Do they have any other choice?
The moral lesson is
“If you can’t beat them join them.”
January 16th, 2010
It’s an early prototype.
As CarlB points out even its showing much the same ‘lag’ as a ‘normal’ controller.
January 16th, 2010
BTW anyone know how this ‘lag’ compares to the Wii motion stuff?
I’m presuming if Natal’s is very similar (or better) then they won’t have much of a problem then, will they?
January 16th, 2010
(cue Columbo)
…..oh, and one last thing, I don’t suppose there’s any data on how Sony’s magic pink eye piece is doing on this?
January 16th, 2010
.
January 16th, 2010
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_Motion_Controller
January 16th, 2010
“…..oh, and one last thing, I don’t suppose there’s any data on how Sony’s magic pink eye piece is doing on this?”
It would be interesting though, wouldn’t it.
January 16th, 2010
HH
sony had a tech demo for it at e3, look it up
January 16th, 2010
An updated demo would be nice though.
January 16th, 2010
Liquid:
So true , Sony had a tech demo at E3 prove that that the new PS3 motion controller works very good.
Sony Motion Controller E3 Tech Demo
youtube.com/watch?v=qiX-26VL4bM
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4069/4272957930_0018771210.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2697/4272216255_58f9e1fce8.jpg
January 16th, 2010
Liquid:
So true , Sony had a tech demo at E3 prove that that the new PS3 motion controller works very good.
Sony Motion Controller E3 Tech Demo
youtube.com/watch?v=qiX-26VL4bM
farm5.static.flickr.com/4069/4272957930_0018771210.jpg
farm3.static.flickr.com/2697/4272216255_58f9e1fce8.jpg
January 16th, 2010
Carlb got his feelings hurt by Mike. Now we get to him whining
January 16th, 2010
Roca.:
He has to face facts no matter what even if it kills him inside. Whining LoL he never changes always being biased LoL he has the console with crappy games just basically multiplaform he was hyping Bayonetta LMFAO how sad just because it was tiny better on Xbox like people care LoL cya later.
Gotta log onto our PSN soon.
January 16th, 2010
Ivan – “LoL he never changes always being biased.”
Oh the irony!
C’mon Ivan, isn’t that the pot calling the kettle black?
After watching the video, I didn’t think it was that bad. I was expecting latency to be much more of a problem.
If it’s only being incorperated into these mini games though, I aint interested in buying it.
January 16th, 2010
Ivan, Roca and all the other childish f*ckwit log-ins that visit this place all desperately wish their comments were devastating rapier-like instances of incedible wit and intelligence….. to cause (in their own minds) others true upset.
I know, laughably pathetic….. but you only have to look at the tone & content of their cr@p to see it really is the case.
1 CarlB comment on here is worth several months worth of Ivan & Roca’s emotive fanboy trolling.
January 16th, 2010
@CarlB,
*post deleted –
CarlB criticism and your opinion/thoughts on the matter or subject is welcome, but personal attacks (direct or indirect snide remarks) towards me will absolutely not be tolerated.
This has been made abundantly clear before. Please take note.
January 16th, 2010
@Mike,
It’s the first time I know of that one of my posts was deleted, and apologies for offending you personally by criticizing your work (picture, tone, and shade of the article and similarities to recent past articles) and mentioning you by name in doing so.
For those who are curious the following is the original content of the deleted post without any criticism (3 short sentences) or comment made of the picture, tone, and shade of the article, it’s relativity to the author himself or his recent past works on Sony & Microsoft (or indirectly referencing any differing aspects/leanings/preferential treatment he may/may not usually have/give between the two):
1. The video shown here is from an article written in August of last year, showing an initial build of Natal.
The source article can be found here:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digital-foundry-vs-project-natal-article
2. The source article states: “What is particularly noteworthy here is that the on-screen Avatar in this demo is closely (if not identically) based on the entire 48-point vector skeleton Natal is processing internally. The way in which the Avatar matches even the slightest of your movements is quite remarkable. It’s not just limited to limb movement – your entire body is being accurately mapped… It’s simple, good fun, and I’m particularly struck at how well Natal judges the velocity of moving limbs… the body-mapping looks so precise that any fitness software it would want to produce has the potential to be astonishingly good”
3. The video is 1080i at 60 fps, and the delay shown is 200ms (as quoted by the author of the source article), which will appear slower at real time than the developer target of 100ms.
4. The source article goes on to state “this Breakout-style demo operates between 133ms to 166ms – effectively the same range of response as Halo 3 working with the joypad. Assuming it’s an ultra-quality, low-latency display, that delta shifts to 166ms-200ms – similar to Killzone 2/GTAIV controller lag.”
January 16th, 2010
“I don’t suppose there’s any data on how Sony’s magic pink eye piece is doing on this?”
I think they are changing the code name from Gem to… “BRUNO(!)”
January 16th, 2010
@CarlB,
A little more subtle, but I’ll allow it.
The interesting takeaway I got from the video is that Natal is adversely impacted by the speed of your motion. The faster you move the more incosistient the latency becomes.
The latency varies dramatically even on 30fps games and does not stay consistient.
also, there is a difference between controller latency (dead zone) and 1:1 movement maping just by the way our brains percieves movements. I know that developers purposely turn down response times on controllers to align with our reaction time and also a way to deal with the inaccuracy of the analog nubs.
However, in contrast to Natal, I’m afraid the latency issue (which is a concern by other developers and other media outlets) may be a limitation on the sensors within the camera and not intended and is a tad more impactful when it comes to playability.
January 16th, 2010
@Mike,
Thanks for that… good to know we haven’t completely reverted back to 1984
Agreed though, the latency is definitley undesirable and 1:1 would be ideal… maybe in it’s next iteration it could reach that, but for now (still 9 months before it is said to be released) it looks like Natal will be a decent voice recognition/hand gesture remote, with maybe one or two decent games before the end of the year.
January 16th, 2010
While any latency effect is extremely undesirable, perhaps it may not be as important initially as we are trying to “shoehorn it into games as we know them today”:
“He also stressed that they are not out to replace games as we know them today. ‘The controller is not going away,’ Greenberg assured… Greenberg told me that I couldn’t even imagine what was on the horizon. ‘You have no idea yet,’ he teased. ‘We are working on completely new types of entertainment that go beyond the controller.’… I suggested… some kind of hybrid game that could use both controllers and Natal together. Greenberg said that this was a definite possibility, and then proceeded to give other examples, reminding me that I’m forgetting about Natal capabilities like facial detection. Hypothetical, I’m sure, but maybe he was hinting at something…”
http://www.destructoid.com/ces-2010-greenberg-on-natal-you-have-no-idea-yet–160130.phtml
January 17th, 2010
NATAL needs major fixing lets hope it doesn’t blow. Nice Sony’s damn new controller is doing great. I won’t bother with neither one motion controller is bad for gaming.
January 17th, 2010
No way… I thought I would be playing Heavy Rain this month… looks like next month (Feb 23) instead.
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6245120.html
January 17th, 2010
CarlB:
Why this month you most want the game really bad i guess since there was never a Jan date just Feb 23rd 2010.
January 17th, 2010
Haha his whining post got deleted.
January 17th, 2010
It upset you too much Roca, it’s the least he could do to keep you from having a heart attack.
January 17th, 2010
CarlB:
No one was affected only the Xbotic are. Since they are worshiping this game since it looks better how sad. Is not even a exclusive.
January 17th, 2010
“how sad”
Oh look, even Ivan is affected… or is it infected? Heavy Rain isn’t a PS3 exclusive?
January 17th, 2010
Who said HR ain’t Sony exclusive? lol
January 17th, 2010
oldschool1987:
Heavy Rain is PS3 lifetime exclusive don’t get confuse is never going to be on Xbox 360 stop drooling all over our games god damn it LMFAO.
January 17th, 2010
oldschool1987:
Sorry it was meant for CarlB. My bad.
January 17th, 2010
It’s okay Ivan, we understand you get a little excited and confused at times
So which game were you talking about when you stated: “Is not even a exclusive” as the last I mentioned was Heavy Rain?
January 17th, 2010
Jealous, bitter Xbot. UNCHARTED 2: AMONG THIEVES.
January 17th, 2010
Too heavy use of punctuation harry.
January 17th, 2010
Crap! Maybe next time.
January 17th, 2010
UC2 isn’t an exclusive either Harry? Whoa… you guys are just droppin’ knowledge left and right.
January 18th, 2010
What you lot on about? Is it some sort of joke or you just making shit up about U2 and HR?
January 18th, 2010
“It upset you too much Roca, it’s the least he could do to keep you from having a heart attack.”
haha keep dreaming! but I can tell it bothered you so much that you had to write the same bullshit/whining comment all over.
now ur are whining about U2 not being a exclusive….lol just fanboy whishes
January 18th, 2010
Joking OS. I come to this site for a good laugh. Lighten up roca, nobody is “whining” here except you. I already platted UC2 before you or Ivan… lol.
January 18th, 2010
your whining post was the one who go deleted not mine…and yes you platted UC2 before me…wwhere you trying to go with that.
I have better stuff to do than to sit here to argue about trophies. you can plat every single game before me and I wouldnt care. as you know I buy might games which means I can go back to play the game wherever I want. on the other hand you have to rush though all your rental games as quick as you can so they ship you the next game.
b
January 18th, 2010
Carl B
I have never noticed the delay in the controller until you mentioned it. It definately exsist. In fact the Racing Wheel has a delay if you race 3 person buy works dead on if you race first person with the cockpit, hood or just straight first person.
January 18th, 2010
Sorry it should say:
In fact the Racing Wheel has a delay if you race 3rd person
January 18th, 2010
“where you trying to go with that.”
Part of the reason I got PS3 was to to play UC2. I played it, enjoyed it so much I platted it, then sent it back because it was over relatively quickly. I don’t “whine” about it because I’m already done with it. That was October of last year.
“I can go back to play the game wherever I want.”
Uhh… yes. And I can too. All I have to do is click on “buy” if I really want the game and I keep it. Not every game I play is worth buying to me @$50-60, especially when many don’t usually last longer than 10-15 hours.
“you have to rush though all your rental games as quick as you can so they ship you the next game.”
LoL… I think you have the wrong idea about Gamefly Roca. There is no rush. It’s a flat fee for as little as $16 a month. I get more than one at a time. If I like one, I just buy it and they send the case and instruction manual like new. Rare is the game that lasts longer than a month for me.
January 18th, 2010
I like owning my games. Message was left using the PS3 web browser.
January 18th, 2010
I still dont see the point of you mentioning you platted U2 before me…?
like I said you rent, I dont…it can take me years to plat a game……because it can take all the time in the world to plat a game since I own it…you on the other hand have to rush through it and get everything done ASAP so that you wont pay 1-3 months of rental for you 1 or 2 games.
but anyways…the subject was about you whining about Mike writing negative stuff about MS and Nata…I dont see you whining when Dave writes negative stuff about PS3 and Sony…
January 18th, 2010
Like I said, I’m already done with UC2, I don’t need to “whine” about it as you accuse me of.
Like I said I rent AND buy, I try before I buy, I don’t just buy everything (demos don’t come out for every game and they are usually just a fraction of the picture anyway; reviews are nice, but not infallible).
“it can take all the time in the world to plat a game since I own it… ”
That’s nice. Demon Souls (GameSpot GotY) will be that game for me. The others, even when you don’t rush, don’t take that long. It can take years to plat a game if you leave it on the shelf and look at it that long though, playing it every once in a while. I do that too.
But I would prefer not to buy EVERY game. I know you may love the thought of buying EVERY game (Quantum of Solace -65, SOCOM -63, NBA 09 -63, Alone in the Dark -69, etc.) you touch, but I don’t need or desire to and can find better ways to spend the money. So sue me, I’m not as good of a consumer as you. Kudos, be proud.
“so that you wont pay 1-3 months of rental for you 1 or 2 games.”
I usually only play one game at a time until I beat it, no rush. That takes nowhere near “1-3″ months to beat a game for me. It may take much longer for other people though.
But anyways, the subject was of me “whining” about Mike writing negative stuff when in fact all I did was crack a joke. The day we can’t joke about this stuff is a sad day indeed. Dave usually writes positive and negative within the same article. You still seem to be sensitive about the whole thing, sorry I hurt your feelings, but you are officially “whining” about it. Don’t worry, the difference is I can handle it
January 18th, 2010
Carl B
I do the same thing but in Canada we have http://www.Gameaccess.ca I love the service as I get to play games I normally won’t buy. Currently on Halo Wars and I’m loving it. Never has a RTS come so easy for me to play. I might just buy this. Hopefully that nets me some more achievements for Halo Waypoint Goodies.
January 18th, 2010
Sweet… I haven’t even tried Halo Wars yet… I’ll put it in my queue and hopefully get to try it at least before I leave… if not, and there is no rental option in Japan, I think I’ll buy it.
January 19th, 2010
“Like I said, I’m already done with UC2, I don’t need to “whine†about it as you accuse me of.”
im not accusing you of whining about U2, but you did whine about this article since it was a negative article about your precious NATAL. lol
even Spidey noticed it:
“CarlB defiantly defending the 360 and Natal AGAIN against the Evil Mike Ferro – ps3 fanboy extraordinaire ….. LOL.”
and then Mike put an end to your whines:
“@CarlB
post deleted -”
btw, all those games you mentioned were borrowed from a friend…the only I actually bought was Socom and it came with a $50 headset. so I basically paid $10 for the game.
Thanks for digging into my account to fulfill your whining efforts. it just showed your one of my biggest fan
just remember this:
whine post = post deleted
January 19th, 2010
The Microsoft Defense Force have been in full swing lately.
It must suck that developers are expressing concern for Natal and praising Sony’s solution.
h**p://www.joystiq.com/2009/12/18/travelers-tales-director-assesses-sony-and-microsoft-motion-con/
January 19th, 2010
“im not accusing you of whining about U2″…
Really? What is “now ur are whining about U2″?
“you did whine about this article since it was a negative article”
All I said was I could guess three things by looking at the pic, and they all turned out to be true. I then went on to reference the facts that the article left out. Hardly “whining”.
Btw, you are still “whining” ;D
â™
January 19th, 2010
@Phranc, doesn’t look all that bad, considering he also mentioned:
“the device is ‘exceedingly clever’… Burton admits he was ‘stunned’ by the technical wizardry of Natal. With the experience of having his own motion capture studio at TT, Burton states that getting “anything resembling mo-cap” in real-time from a single camera is ‘nothing short of amazing.’”
Arguably more developers had “concerns” with PS3′s obscure architecture, but they managed to work around it and still produced some good games in it’s first year in the face of competition that was easier to develop for.
Again, it’s just a first iteration/experimentation that will likely be refined next gen. It could flop or be decent, but there is still 10 months time before we find out. 200ms lag is already turning into 100ms @30fps. It will probably be 10-50ms @60fps next gen, if they decide to take it forward.
January 20th, 2010
whine post = post deleted
have any of my post been deleted? I dont whine nor I attact writers because they critize a electronic device…that was pretty lame of you. and this is not the only time, you have been attacking Mike’s personal experienced with a game and you relied on other ppl’s quote while he relied on his own personal experienced with both version.
all the natal video are laggy as shit but here you are arguing and whining about it. Devs have already stated the lag might become an issue for the tech and since the Natal camara can only track movement at a frame rate of 30Hz it will be hard to avoid the lag. the Wii acquisition rate is 98 Hz
do you think 100ms is acceptable now? 50-10 next gen? lmaoo
the Wii has a 50ms lag without the motion plus and the lag is pretty noticeable…the PS Wand is the more accurate of the bunch with a 1:1 latency ratio. thats why many devs think the lag will hurt Natal in the long run.
January 20th, 2010
@Carlb.
I saw the positive things mentioned about Natal and can even come up with some myself simply by viewing video of what’s shown.
The issue at hand was the latency, and thats where the concern was.
When you see video of people playing (crashing) in burnout or playing games like geo wars that require 1 to 1 input, it causes some concern as to what they plan on doing with the device. Will it also be utilized in the big games or just be a causal go to device. The lag concerns spell trouble and make me believe it will be closer to the latter.
On the other hand, if they add a feature here and there (like sixaxis) did to spice up parts of games it could be a cool little addition, even if you’re not into the casual/party scene.
I’m thinking a Bioshock-hack type mini game using natal would be kinda cool. Especially in 3D.
January 20th, 2010
Still whining Roca?
I didn’t “attack” Mike’s personal experience with a game, I mentioned others that seemed just as valid and even more technical in their description.
Roca, please read above where I said “any latency effect is extremely undesirable”
“do you think 100ms is acceptable now?”
It depends on the kind of games and apps they build for it and how they incorporate it into hybrid games. Also read above where I state, “any latency effect is extremely undesirable” and “it could flop or be decent, but there is still 10 months time before we find out”… “lmaoo”
January 20th, 2010
@phranc, I agree. They’ve already gone on record saying it will not replace the traditional controller in traditional games, also saying hybrid games like you mentioned are a strong possibility, as well as games designed from the ground up for Natals strengths, while working around it’s weaknesses.
Again, I think they would be lucky to get 1-2 decent non-gimmick games before the end of the year, and I do not think it will sell in the millions as touted by the end of the year.
January 20th, 2010
my point is that if the Wii has a lower latency then the Natal then there’s definitely lag. the tech can be 10 months away but devs are aready working on it and games usually takes more then 8-10 months to develop…so whatever it is now, that’s what they have to deal with and figure out how to make game that wont require the player to move or do gesture at a fast pace.
here is some info between the 3, some have their own advantage in different aspects
Natal
-100ms latency at a slow body movement (lag noticeable)
-100+ ms the faster you move
-capturing body movement at a frame rate of 30Hz
-Superior voice Recognition
-Superior in tracking movement and gestures
-based on body movement and gestures
vs
Wii
-Averages a 50ms latency without Motion Plus(lag noticeable)
-Acquisition rate at 98Hz
-No field depth
-No vioce recognition
-No body movement recognition
-Bottons for precise controls and a simple, fast, reliable way to trigger actions
vs
PS Wand
-Accurate 1:1 motion recognition (no lag)
-Records at 60Hz
-Detects the field position in real-life 3D space
-Voice Recognition
-Bottons for precise controls and a simple, fast, reliable way to trigger actions
-Can also track body movement
January 20th, 2010
Roca, I completely agree, and the lag was already mentioned and recognized. Each of the three types of motion control will have their own games built specifically for that tech’s strengths.
January 20th, 2010
Further proof of the apocolypse.
Dogs and cats living together. Mass hysteria!