God of War III: Last Titan Standing – worthy to join the Spartan army?
Sony and Spike TV are doing an interesting show to promote the release of the highly anticipated game, God of War III. Spike TV will be holding a casting call to find gamers worthy of joining the Spartan army.
According to Spike TV, Sony and Spike are looking for the biggest God of War III fans to participate in the Last Titan Standing event. From the sound of it, this 30 minute episode on Spike TV will play out like American Gladiators.
Gamers will be placed in recreated situations straight from GOW III. Gamers will have to use brute power and intellect to push through obstacles and solve complex puzzles. It also sounds like gamers will have to play parts of GOW III on screen and survive to move on to the next level.
Those interested in participating can download the questionnaire form here and fill it out and send it back to Spike (SpikeCasting@Spike.com). Candidates must submit forms by 5 p.m. (PST) Feb. 19. It seems like the participants will get an early special copy of God of War III and additional swag.
The special show will air the night before the launch date of God of War III on March 16th.
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152 Responses to “God of War III: Last Titan Standing – worthy to join the Spartan army?”
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February 15th, 2010
They’ll be no match for the KISS Army.
February 15th, 2010
Not happy with Sony Customer Support. My PS3′s ethernet port will not recognise a switch or a router apart from my one I am currently using, as the green lights on the switch don’t even blink when plugged in. I called them last week and the guy told me to do a full format and that will fix it. I did that and not only do I have a blank hard drive, the fix didn’t work. I called them back and the same guy said ‘It’s not our problem’. Even though I mentioned that plugging my Xbox and my PC works with that switch (proving that there is nothing wrong with the switch) works, he would not budge. I am sure that this lightning strike I had has done something to the PS3, because it worked well before this all happened.
Microsoft Support, on the other hand, paid for my delivery and repair of my Xbox, which came back today, with no sort of argument whatsoever.
I am sure it wouldn’t take much for someone at Sony to do some sort of test on the ethernet port, or just replace it. I am happy to even pay for it to be replaced, even though it’s under warranty. I just want this machine to actually work the way I want it to, because after all of the freezes and other shit I have had to contend with (BTW, I mentioned these freezes to the support staff and he said that they happen from time to time and there is nothing he can do about it) I think it’s time I actually had some luck with this machine.
February 15th, 2010
Harry,
If your PS3 works when plugged into the source and doesn’t with the switch, then the port on the PS3 is probably fine.
Sounds like a compatibility issue between the switch and the PS3. Is it a switch or a router? it makes a difference as far as configuration.
Your 360 was fried, thats something Msft can fix. A PS3 compatibility issue with the switch – there is nothing Sony can do. There are known compat. issues with Xbox 360s with certian routers and PS3s with certian routers etc…
I would recommend buying another switch, they are pretty cheap.
February 15th, 2010
Hi Mike,
I thought the same thing, so I borrowed a router to see if it has the same issue, which it does. What is strange is that I am using the same brand switch as the one that got fried, so there shouldn’t have been any issues. It’s got me shit-boggled.
Anyway, my Dlink 2740B was under warranty when it got fried. I have sent it off, so when I get it back I am going to give wireless another chance, as I only attempted wireless with a Linksys (my backup) which slowed to a crawl.
I am just a little pissed off at the guy who told me to erase my hard drive.
February 15th, 2010
@Harry
“If your PS3 works when plugged into the source and doesn’t with the switch, then the port on the PS3 is probably fine.
Sounds like a compatibility issue between the switch and the PS3. Is it a switch or a router? it makes a difference as far as configuration.
Your 360 was fried, thats something Msft can fix. A PS3 compatibility issue with the switch – there is nothing Sony can do. There are known compat. issues with Xbox 360s with certian routers and PS3s with certian routers etc…
I would recommend buying another switch, they are pretty cheap.”
I second that.
You expect the PS3 to support all other hardware? Because the 360 is compatible the PS3 should be to? Go take a basic computer course.
February 15th, 2010
On topic:
I want to play Kratos!!!!
February 15th, 2010
Personally Harry your story pisses me off. It pisses me off because so many people knock Microsoft for RROD and a 3 year warrenty and spin this as a bad thing. Even though RROD is not cool at least there is a soloution. Microsoft has fixed things for me too for free and I was well over the 1 year warrenty. Sony gives no such support and everyone seems to forget or not know about the PS2 and it’s failure rate and Sony did dick all for it’s customers. I wish Happy was here because he has harped on this issue before and it just goes to show that Sony really dose not give a shit about you. Thanks for giving me a reason why I should not buy a PS3. The way Microsoft supports it’s customer has been evident since I’ve owned a Xbox. That’s why I have no problems pay for LIVE because Microsoft continually gives back and makes sure our experience is top notch.
February 15th, 2010
Fuck off CAD. You’re reaching so far your arms must be sore. You fuckin know there is a big difference between a piece of shit 360 that fails so fuckin often that they had to TRIPLE the warranty and hardware compatibility. If not then leave this site to the people with common sense.
You are such a piece of shit.
February 15th, 2010
Fuckin Troll
February 15th, 2010
@Harry
I gotta agree with mike on this one. I know you purchased a new switch and it doesn’t work, but it does work with ‘something’. It could be something as simple as the chipset in the switch model being revised (e.g. I have a Linksys router of which there are about 6-8 different revisions), and that new revision just doesn’t like your PS3.
That said, you could always try the supervisor ‘button’ to see if sony’s tech support would bend over for you. Sadly I’ve worked tech support and usually ‘working with some other device’ means you wash your hands of it being a problem with your hardware…
Sucky issue
February 15th, 2010
Cad,
There’s no need for Sony to extend their warranty because they make quality hardware. Unlike Microsoft, there systems have an acceptable failure rate. The only reason that Microsoft gives a three year warranty is because they know most people wouldn’t buy their system due to their terrible failure rate. Ps3 systems due fail but not like Xbox360 systems due.
February 15th, 2010
You’re right CAD. There is a lot of talk about the rrod, but nobody talks about MS doing something about the problem.
You do realise talking about MS or the Xbox 360 in a positive manner is not allowed? lol
I wouldn’t expect may others to agree with you, not here anyway.
February 15th, 2010
How long is the warrenty with the PS3?
February 15th, 2010
@Happy
you are using a linksys router? what model? I might have a suggestion for you
February 15th, 2010
I meant @Harry, not @happy. Sorry
February 15th, 2010
One year.
February 15th, 2010
@Harry
If it worked for the ps3 before like you say then compatibility is obviously not the problem.
It’s pretty clear sony just don’t want to know. Try taking it back to the shop where you bought it and see if they are any more help.
February 15th, 2010
CAD
hahaha cad you fucking troll. . . why does it bother you when people give out about ms? your so blinded by MS jizz its hilarious, there a greedy corporation and they dont care about you! haha now go cry somewher else!
but sony on the other hand loves its supporters, i should know, ive slept with the exec board twice now!
haha jokin btw, i wouldn want CAD to go into a debate about fags
February 15th, 2010
LOL,
You don’t actually believe that, do you Liquid?
Sony/MS/Nintendo and just about every other major corporation, only care about the contents of your wallet.
Lol, don’t get me wrong. I’ll buy there shit if I want it bad enough, but I aint going to be their lap dog.
On another subject, Does anybody know if ethernet over powerline is effective?
A little of topic I know, but my wireless adapter doesn’t like the idea of doing it’s fucking job.
February 15th, 2010
@Virus
“How long is the warrenty with the PS3?”
One year just like every other piece of tech made today.
Just like every other NON 360 hardware MS makes.
CAD is just a retarded MS fanboy.
February 15th, 2010
“If it worked for the ps3 before like you say then compatibility is obviously not the problem.”
I still say it could be, they could have diff. chipsets.
But I still say push sony because it may get you a ‘shut the customer up’ service or something. Just don’t push too hard
February 15th, 2010
I’ve mentioned this before but obviously no one paid attention to me.
I have had problems with a linksys router and PS3 before as well.
There is a “compatitbility” problem with many Linksys routers working with the PS3.
February 15th, 2010
I have used Linksys routers with no problems.
So to say the PS3 has a “compatibility” problem with Linksys routers is just wrong.
February 15th, 2010
@ncaissie
Don’t be stupid
I used the word “many” not the word “all”. Huge difference here. Many implies that several models of Linksys routers, but NOT ALL, have compatitibility issues with PS3.
Also I didn’t say the PS3 has compatibility issues with linksys routers.
Let me quote myself
“There is a “compatitbility†problem with many Linksys routers working with the PS3.”
In case you don’t get this I will explain…
It’s the router NOT the PS3.
For example I use the Linksys WRT54G, which is KNOWN to have problems connecting to PS3s. ESPECIALLY wirelessly.
WRT54G is also a VERY common model. Alot of people have it.
Basically its the way the routers connect and handle information.
At any rate I was only trying to help out a fellow gamer. So ncaissie stop being a fucking idiot and start being more helpful.
February 15th, 2010
“I have used Linksys routers with no problems.”
I use a linksys router (WRT54G w/ DD-WRT firmware on it, not the linksys stuff) and it indeed works fine with my PS3 (as well as 360 and wii) but for my particular model there have been about 5-6 different versions all carrying the exact same external model number. There was even total board change on the inside, yet the model remained the same… So even if he purchased the exact same SKU from the same store, the revision could be diff. It could be compatability.
That said, the problem here really is that his PS3 works with his current router, which means it *should* be fine for any network device. Harry just has one of those fooked up issues where it could be his ps3 or it could be his gear. For tech. support thats pretty much the worst position to be in, and its going to take luck, enough phone calls or the right rep. to get them to actually touch his PS3.
February 15th, 2010
“There is a “compatitbility†problem with many Linksys routers working with the PS3.”
“Also I didn’t say the PS3 has compatibility issues with linksys routers.”
WTF does that mean then?
February 15th, 2010
6 of 1 1/2 dozen of the other?
February 15th, 2010
@ncaissie
how many times do I have to repeat it?
“It’s the router NOT the PS3.”
February 15th, 2010
I agree with SW.
hardware can change without the model changing.
February 15th, 2010
What they need to have is a compatibility list like microsoft has complete with product name, model number, and firmware version information:
http://support.xbox.com/support/en/us/xbox360/XboxLive/GetConnected/CompatibleNetworkEquipment/CompatibleNetworkingEquipment.aspx
February 15th, 2010
virus
no man im just jokin around, i know all corporations ar the same. . . except sony
haha just jokin. . .
February 15th, 2010
Damn Harry that sucks you can’t get your ps3 working. One thing is for sure if I were you I would buy a power surge protector as soon as possible.
February 15th, 2010
Ghost does have a point. Why was it not pluged into a power surge protector in the first place. Well at least Microsoft fixed your 360.
February 15th, 2010
@ most,
Thanks for your help.
The powerboard it was plugged into did have a surge protector in it already, however lightning strikes are a lot powerful than your everyday power surge, and the board must not have been able to handle it.
The Linksys I am using is WAG54G2. The connection has always been good via Ethernet with this modem, wireless however is a different story. Leaving the transmission speed as ‘auto’ results in a slow download speed with the PS3. Slowing the transmission speed to 9mps fixes this. It’s not ideal, but at least it works. At any rate, this should be a non-existent problem when I get my DLink 2740B back this week sometime.
@ ncassie
“You expect the PS3 to support all other hardware? Because the 360 is compatible the PS3 should be to? Go take a basic computer course.”
I have now used two different devices, a switch and a router, and the lights do not switch on for either. As a test last night, I took both of these to my brother in law’s place and plugged them both into his PS3. And presto, they lit up. As I have been saying all along, there is nothing wrong with my hardware, the issue is definitely with my PS3′s ethernet adapter. It all worked perfectly before the lightning strike. As for your closing comment, I don’t need to take any sort of basic computer course, so you can keep stupid comments like that to yourself.
Anyway, thanks again for the tips everyone. I think I am going to have to forget about hardwiring the PS3. The only reason I wanted to do it was to stream movies from my computer, however with wireless it was jumpy. I still have the 360 to do that. Hopefully wireless doesn’t slow online gaming down. Does anyone use a Dlink 2740B?
February 15th, 2010
Virus – “How long is the warrenty with the PS3?â€
one year, just like MS NON-RROD warranty!
February 15th, 2010
Was there really a reason to say that?
The Question is:
How long is the warrenty with the PS3?
Answer is:
1 Year
Not a fanboy answer like:
one year, just like MS NON-RROD warranty!
Did he ask about the 360 warrenty? No I don’t think so.
February 15th, 2010
If the non-RRoD warranty is 1 year, then how come Microsoft took my blown ethernet card 360 which I have had for a lot longer than a year? Maybe I was just lucky.
February 15th, 2010
I guess you were lucky, it is 1 year for non-rrod
360 – WARRANTIES
Source: https://support.xbox.com/support/en/us/nxe/Hardware/Warranty/Warranty/ProductWarrantyNew.aspx
**** One Year Express Warranty on Console (Three Years for Three Lights Flashing Red)****
Subject to the terms and conditions of this Limited Warranty, Microsoft warrants to you only (the original retail purchaser) that, during the Warranty Period and under normal use and service, the Xbox Console will substantially conform with the printed user instruction materials packaged with the Console.
****90 Day Express Warranty on Accessories.****
Subject to the terms and conditions of this Limited Warranty, Microsoft warrants to you only (the original retail purchaser) that, during the Warranty Period and under normal use and service, the Accessory will substantially conform with the printed user instruction materials packaged with the Console or Accessory (unless a separate written express warranty is packaged with the particular Accessory).
February 16th, 2010
I guess Harry, because you actually OWN a 360 (i. e. , you don’t just talk trash here without having any current experience), you experienced Microsoft’s customer service first hand, which goes beyond legalese.
February 16th, 2010
“Cad,
There’s no need for Sony to extend their warranty because they make quality hardware. Unlike Microsoft, there systems have an acceptable failure rate. The only reason that Microsoft gives a three year warranty is because they know most people wouldn’t buy their system due to their terrible failure rate. Ps3 systems due fail but not like Xbox360 systems due.”
@twillight
Yeah sure, when you are already looking for a new ps3.. lol
February 16th, 2010
“If the non-RRoD warranty is 1 year, then how come Microsoft took my blown ethernet card 360 which I have had for a lot longer than a year? Maybe I was just lucky.”
Lol Harry i feel lucky too coz MS replaced my xbox too last year (oct) when i tried cleaning my dvd drive with a vaccum cleam
Needless to say i ended up with a OUT OF WARRANTY 360 which couldn’t read any dvd/game..
And i know many people who intentionally get their 360′s to RROD to get a replacement (as in if their dvd drive stopped working etc)
February 16th, 2010
Microsoft replaced my 360 for the disk drive sricking and that happened after 2 years. I know they say 1 year but I know others that have had similar experiences. Maybe if your a Gold member they bypass the BS
February 16th, 2010
so every 360 owner has got their 360 replaced……lol
February 16th, 2010
Whoa, Twilight and Ivan both had their PS3′s go down??? I guess that’s at least part the explanation as to why Ivan doesn’t post here any more……lol.
February 16th, 2010
@CAD, Tosh, Harry
You are just proving out point that the 360 is a POS with a lot more problems the RRoD. I didn’t even know there were all the other issues.
February 16th, 2010
@Carl
Ivan is on PSN all the time so his PS3 is fine.
February 16th, 2010
What I don’t understand about Harry’s problem is that when he plugs in directly to the modem and not through the switch it works. To me that would say theres nothing wrong with the ethernet connection either and would be a switch issue.
February 16th, 2010
Toshithegreat,
The bottom line is the Xbox360 is the worst made piece of electronics in history so deal with it. My isolated issue with the Ps3 controller doesn’t change this.
February 16th, 2010
anyways my post was to answer ViRus question regarding the difference between the warraties. PS3 one-year warranty is just the same as the 360 non-RROD warranty.
@ncaissie,
where you able to get though the spiked floor?
February 16th, 2010
“@CAD, Tosh, Harry
You are just proving out point that the 360 is a POS with a lot more problems the RRoD. I didn’t even know there were all the other issues.”
ncaissie
Wow the one and only time it ever happened well after the 1 year warrenty was over and it was back in my hand in 1 week free of charge. That is excellence Ncaissie. Never seen a RROD and I got my box fixed quicker then it takes a Sony game to come out of development. Don’t make excuses for the way Sony treats it’s customers Harry’s experience say it all and it’s nothing new since the PS2. What’s funny is that a few of you have already paid to get your PS3 fixed and the 360 owners have paid one red cent.
February 16th, 2010
“The bottom line is the Xbox360 is the worst made piece of electronics in history so deal with it. My isolated issue with the Ps3 controller doesn’t change this.”
Oh that was classic. LOL LOL
“My isolated issue with the Ps3 controller doesn’t change this.”
Next time leave that out so you don’t look like an idiot.
February 16th, 2010
hey cad
go get raped repeatedly by a giraffe
xbox 360 = pure dated shit
February 16th, 2010
I’ve had mixed results with Sony’s PR.
On one hand I thought they blew me off when I called and asked for a replacement HDD caddy with new screws as I destroyed the others one and stripped the screws.
Then one day it was waiting for me in the mail…
February 16th, 2010
“Never seen a RROD and I got my box fixed quicker then it takes a Sony game to come out of development.”
Really CAD? Really? Now we’re comparing something that should be 4 weeks tops to something that gets measures in years.
You sir fail.
and twilight is a multisystem owner that is very impartial to both systems. Way to look like an ass again.
Unfortunately it’s a fact that the 360 is the worse consumer electronic product to ever come out as far as reliability is concerned. It’s very good that MS is taking care of the system with the three year warranty but please don’t pretend that the fault doesn’t exist of even close to the fail rate of any other system.
February 16th, 2010
Liquid
Send your mom over any time. I like long necks. Good for deep throating.
Sorry I couldn’t resist!!
February 16th, 2010
Thanks Phranctoast for blowing nothing but hot air. Come with some substance next time. Now go sit in your corner and calm down and wipe that snot running from your nose.
February 16th, 2010
Of course the truth is “hot air” to you.
February 16th, 2010
I’d like to use this time to throw the trailer back up.
Watch it and weep haters!!!!
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/exclusive-chaos-god-of-war/61815
February 16th, 2010
Oh Cool how did you get those words in blue and have it underlined. And look if I mouse over it my pointer changes from an arrow to a pointing finger. Cool Trick Phranctoast!! Let me guess it’s only on Playstation. LOL
February 16th, 2010
CAD
shut up you child raping fuck, how many alter boys did you fuck today? il kill you!!!! fuck u stupid religious prick! hey why arent the dinosaurs mentioned in your bible!? fuck you you fuckin piece of shit!!!! lets see whos laughin when i stamp your fuckin face into the curb! i hope you get raped by 8th of the gayest men on the planet!!!
February 16th, 2010
“i hope you get raped by 8th of the gayest men on the planet!!!”
that would be HH….. CON is at the 7th spot, CAD is way higher though
February 16th, 2010
Cad,
If anyone is an idiot, then it certainly would be you. How about showing some class? Do you even know how to communicate without using personal insults? Afterall, I supopose only an idiot would try to justify the failure rate of the Xbox360. It’s not being anti-Xbox360 stating that the failure rate of Xbox360 is terrible. Xbox360 has some decent things going for it but the failure rate isn’t one of them. I guess your one of those people who would argue about the color of the sky as well.
February 16th, 2010
@CAD
does that trailer make you jealous?
February 16th, 2010
@ncaisse
I think u didn’t read the part where i said, i tried cleaning my dvd-drive with a vaccum cleaner..
Why not try it with ur POS ps3 and see if $ony replaces it lol..
February 16th, 2010
“My isolated issue with the Ps3 controller doesn’t change this.”
@twillight
Isolated.. lol far from it, google is your friend gal..
Try it, you are not the only one experiencing this issue and this is not the only issue related to firmware updates on ps3 lol
February 16th, 2010
“and twilight is a multisystem owner that is very impartial to both systems. Way to look like an ass again.”
@phranc
lol
February 16th, 2010
No need for that liquid. How old are you?
February 16th, 2010
“@ncaissie,
where you able to get though the spiked floor?”
Nope lol
February 16th, 2010
CON
im 28, you? that prick isnt gona talk about my mother like that, respect the dead CAD you fuking piece of shit
February 16th, 2010
“@ncaisse
I think u didn’t read the part where i said, i tried cleaning my dvd-drive with a vaccum cleaner..
Why not try it with ur POS ps3 and see if $ony replaces it lol..”
I’m not that stupid.
Why don’t you just put your 360 in the dishwasher like a normal xbot?
February 16th, 2010
LOL @ ncaissie
February 16th, 2010
Toshithegreat,
The day that Sony makes history as being the worst made piece of electronics in history I’ll agree with you about Sony’s failure rate. I have nothing against the Xbox360 except for the terrible hardware failure rate that the system has. No matter how you try to spin it,the Ps3 failure rates are not near the high failure rates of the Xbox360.
February 16th, 2010
agree with twilight and the fact the 360 is gay
February 16th, 2010
Oh she’s dead too. EVEN BETTER. Dead corps don’t complain. I’ve never had a blow job by a ghost. Hopefully she does not leave slim like Slimer from Ghostbusters.
February 16th, 2010
“Toshithegreat,
The day that Sony makes history as being the worst made piece of electronics in history I’ll agree with you about Sony’s failure rate. I have nothing against the Xbox360 except for the terrible hardware failure rate that the system has. No matter how you try to spin it,the Ps3 failure rates are not near the high failure rates of the Xbox360.”
@twillight
Maybe you never heard about those exploding batteries of $ONY laptops.. As i said earlier, google is your friend gal.. try it..
Atleast you tried lol
February 16th, 2010
” worst made piece of electronics ”
@twillight
You still believe that right, dont you.. Three red lights vs exploding batteries, yeah real tough to decide
February 16th, 2010
“Why don’t you just put your 360 in the dishwasher like a normal xbot?”
Better than using a ps3 as a paperweight or doormat i suppose.. try that the next time you buy one
February 16th, 2010
Sony on the Geohot PS3 hack
Recently a new patent by a SONY employee was published on the patent site at faqs.org. It seems it is SONY’s answer for Geohot’s progress. Take a look here:
“A method, system, and computer-usable medium are disclosed for controlling unauthorized access to encrypted application program code. Predetermined program code is encrypted with a first key. The hash value of an application verification certificate associated with a second key is calculated by performing a one-way hash function. Binding operations are then performed with the first key and the calculated hash value to generate a third key, which is a binding key. The binding key is encrypted with a fourth key to generate an encrypted binding key, which is then embedded in the application. The application is digitally signed with a fifth key to generate an encrypted and signed program code image. To decrypt the encrypted program code, the application verification key certificate is verified and in turn is used to verify the authenticity of the encrypted and signed program code image. The encrypted binding key is then decrypted with a sixth key to extract the binding key. The hash value of the application verification certificate associated with the second key is then calculated and used with the extracted binding key to extract the first key. The extracted first key is then used to decrypt the encrypted application code.â€
looks like he has a long way to go, 3 years just crack the first key? lol…..
February 16th, 2010
@ ncassie,
“@CAD, Tosh, Harry
You are just proving out point that the 360 is a POS with a lot more problems the RRoD. I didn’t even know there were all the other issues.â€
Norman, sometimes I have to wonder if you are serious when you are typing your comments, or if you are taking the piss. I hope for your sake you are just taking the piss.
My 360 was charging a controller when the ethernet port blew up due to a lightning strike. Toshi broke his by trying to clean it with a vacuum cleaner (haha, that’s funny Toshi). At least Microsoft even looked at these consoles, rather than the polite ‘fuck off’ that Sony gave me, even after I called them back and told them that the switch and router that don’t work on mine work on my brother in-law’s.
February 16th, 2010
@ roca,
The dude’s wasting his time, unless he’s doing it for self satisfaction.
February 16th, 2010
Harry the best part is that is that we’ve all turned it in after the warrenty and got in fixed in Australia, India, Canada and obviously the USA. Seems like Microsoft is pretty consistent.
February 16th, 2010
im gona cut ur head off CAD
February 16th, 2010
im gona cut ur head off CAD
February 16th, 2010
CAD
you sick piece shit. . . first off your a child rapist, you ar the stupidest piece of shit i hav ever talked too on the net! your wife is a lousy pillow talker, especially when she gagging on my cock, you fukin pedo!!! but man your wife is good in a tie her up and pound it into her ass kinda way. . . and your new baby, well il step on its face slowly so it will be more painful and to put it out of its misery, from u u sick fuck!! dont fuck with me CAD, you will only come out worse! now fuckin apologise!!!!!
February 17th, 2010
Toshithegreat,
Nice try. The discussion was Ps3 versus Xbox360 failures. This still doesn’t change the fact that the Xbox360 is still the worse made gaming console ever.
February 17th, 2010
Hey Liquid
Make sure that dead bitch doesn’t show up late. I hoped when you put her in the ground that you took out her dentures. I just love a good gum job.
February 17th, 2010
“the Xbox360 is still the worse made gaming console ever.”
Was until they fixed it about a year ago. The present version is on par or even better than PS3′s rate, and still covered by the three year warranty.
“SquareTrade found that Xbox 360 quality has improved dramatically since the third quarter of 2008, shortly before the 65nm CPU/GPU “Jasper†model was introduced. Since then, first-year failure rates have plummeted to below the 4 percent the company projected. Looking at 500 units purchased in 2009, SquareTrade found that less than 1 percent had suffered the Red Ring of Death.â€
February 17th, 2010
“Was until about a year ago.” I’m sorry Cad but you can’t change history. The Xbox360 system has gone down in history as being the worse made gaming machine ever.
By the way, Halo Legends came out. I was laughing because most of the Best Buy boys had copies on hold underneath the registers so they could get the movie when they got off.
February 17th, 2010
“Toshithegreat,
Nice try. The discussion was Ps3 versus Xbox360 failures. This still doesn’t change the fact that the Xbox360 is still the worse made gaming console ever.”
@twilight
Lol
“The day that Sony makes history as being the worst made piece of electronics in history I’ll agree with you about Sony’s failure rate”
Looks like i was not babling abt electronics, YOU were.. So there
Try harder next time
February 17th, 2010
That’s too much for Cad to understand….
February 17th, 2010
Lol. The stuff some of you Xbots come up with.
February 17th, 2010
@ CAD: Your obviously a pussy in real life, acting hard online. You wouldn’t say shit about some ones mum to their face would you? No, because you’d get your head stamped on.
February 17th, 2010
Hey Oldschool I have never direspected you the the extent that I’m giving to Liquid. I have not one ounce of respect for this asshole and I’ll say it to his face anyday. Stay out of this unless you want some too.
February 17th, 2010
Twilight
The only reason the 360 RROD seems bigger then when Sony gave the finger to PS2 owners is because of the internet. Had the internet been more prominent back then it would have been news everywhere. Plus Sony never admited to a problem. There was a class action lawsuit and Sony settled out of court. It was like sweeping the problem under the carpet. That’s why Microsoft is heads and shoulders above Sony when it comes to customer service.
February 17th, 2010
Sony Playstation 2 Defective, Class Action Charges
Consumers have been complaining for more than a year that Sony’s Playstation 2 video game machine stops reading DVDs and certain types of games, often when the unit is just a few months old. Now, a class-action lawsuit has been filed against Sony, alleging the company deceived thousands of consumers by marketing PlayStation 2 as a DVD player and a video-game unit.
“My son bought a Sony Playstation 2 in September. By Christmas, it stopped working with a Disc Error, cannot read disc,” Janet of Graniteville, SC, complained to ConsumerAffairs.com.
Despite numerous consumer complaints, the company claims it’s an insolated problem.
“I have spoken to numerous people who have called Sony about this — mind you, which isn’t caused by normal wear and tear or misuse of the system — and Sony still refuses to confirm that this is a mistake within the system,” said Andrew of Warren, PA in his report to ConsumerAffairs.com.
The suit charges that PlayStation 2 is not a reliable DVD player and that playing certain DVDs can shut down the unit. Sony denies deceiving consumers.
Sony is fighting the suit and contends the problem is not caused by the unit’s design or by Sony’s manufacturing process. It blames dust particles, dirt, fingerprints and scratches on the discs for the problems.
Sony urges consumers with PlayStation 2 problems to contact the company at (800) 345-7669 or check the PlayStation 2 Support Web site.
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news03/playstation.html
February 17th, 2010
Sony settles PS2 class action suit
Nov 9, 2005
Ruling on infamous “disc read error” issue could give qualifying PS2 owners $25, a free game, free repairs, or a replacement system.
PlayStation 2 owners whose systems have given them inappropriate “Disc Read Error” messages are eligible to reap the benefits of a settlement in a class action lawsuit they might never have heard of.
Sony Computer Entertainment America, Sony of Canada, and Toys R Us of Canada have settled a class action lawsuit over the systems, pending the approval of US and Canadian courts. If those courts approve the settlement, gamers who have recently purchased, repaired, or lost the use of an affected PS2 are eligible to receive a check for $25 ($31 Canadian), a free PS2 game from a specified list, or a free or reduced cost repair or replacement (at SCEA’s discretion) of an affected system.
A Sony rep confirmed the settlement for GameSpot but insisted it is in no way an admission of guilt. “While we are convinced that there is no problem with these models, and that we would win if we defended this case through trial, we have agreed to settle these lawsuits to avoid the extraordinary high cost of cumbersome class action litigation,” the representative said.
It should be noted that this settlement doesn’t mean a free $25 for everyone who ever got a “Disc Read Error” message from his or her PS2. All claims must be accompanied by proof of the purchase and/or repairs. Claims must be made over the settlement Web site or mailed and postmarked by February 16, 2006.
It will be a while before anybody sees the benefits of the suit. First the settlement needs the approval of the courts, and those hearings in the US and Canada have been tentatively scheduled for April 28, 2006, and May 11, 2006, respectively.
For more details on who qualifies for the benefits and how to claim them, check out the settlement Web site.
http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/driving/jakx/news.html?sid=6139482
February 17th, 2010
Sony settles PS2 Lawsuit
10 November, 2005
Sony Computer Entertainment America, Sony Canada and the Canadian subsidiary of Toys R US have reached a settlement in the PS2 ‘disc read error’ class action lawsuit.
The lawsuit was filed by class representatives Edward Kaen, Robert Hinojosa and Christoper Hirst, who claimed that their PS2s regularly displayed the ‘disc read error’ message and would not play games. It was also alleged that some consoles actively caused damages to CDs or DVDs during playback.
Sony refuted the charges, claiming that there was nothing wrong with the hardware whatsoever.
Now a settlement has been reached which would give consumers who have recently bought, repaired or lost a PS2 with one of the specified model numbers a cheque for USD 25, a free PS2 game from a defined list, or a free or cut-price repair or replacement of their console – at SCEA’s discretion. Full details are available on the settlement website.
Sony has made it clear that the company is not accepting any wrongdoing in agreeing to the settlement, telling US website GameSpot: “While we are convinced that there is no problem with these models and that we would win if we defended this case through trial, we have agreed to settle these lawsuits to avoid the extraordinary high cost of cumbersome class action litigation.”
The settlement is now awaiting court approval, with hearings set for April 28 in the States and May 11 in Canada.
February 17th, 2010
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/news101105ps2lawsuit
February 17th, 2010
http://www.ps2settlement.com/Index.htm
As you can see swept under the rug.
February 17th, 2010
CAD bore off.
February 17th, 2010
hahaha does CAD think he just pwned me? all that retard has to fall back on is ” yo mom” shit jokes, if i met u in real life u would piss your pants, you wouldn say nothin to my face, the day a pussy yank bet an irishman is just too funny, now before carlb tries to post links about somethin in sport, i mean random ppl fitin not pro boxers. but CAD man your newborn is a good little punchbag, even play darts on it sumtimes, but its was funny usin a screwdriver to gouge out its eyes haha man you should of heard it scream, but my favourite is to tie a rope around its neck and just drag it round the street for half an hour. you fucked with the wrong person CAD. . . i hope i meet u in real life someday u piece of shit
February 17th, 2010
Cads mom is like the ps3. They only do everything
February 17th, 2010
CAD keeps looking like an real idiot trying to defend the 360 shitty hardware..
do you proved anything with the PS2 settlement?
not really, in fact most company settles a lawsuit before they even go to trial to aviod high cost of legal paper work, lawyers, fees, etc
here is some proof that companies settles even if the lawsuit is rediculous and stupid:
***Microsoft has settled a $90 million lawsuit that accused the company of infringing on patents related to Halo and both Xbox consoles***
The plaintiff, PalTalk Holdings did not reveal the terms of the agreement, but a the firm’s lawyer said, “The parties have settled the case, and PalTalk is quite pleased with the outcome.”
A Microsoft spokesperson said it was an “amicable agreement.”
The trial between the two companies began days ago before the settlement ended the proceedings. PalTalk had said it acquired two patents from MPath Interactive, and accused Microsoft of infringing on those patents, demanding a large sum of royalties. He patents pertained to a “server-group messaging system for interactive applications” and “emptying packed data state during execution of packed data instructions. Prior to the settlement, Microsoft lawyer David Pritikin said, “The patents aren’t worth much. Certainly not $90 million.”
…….thanks for looking like a dick once again CAD
February 17th, 2010
I still have a working launch PS2.
February 17th, 2010
“The only reason the 360 RROD seems bigger then when Sony gave the finger to PS2 owners is because of the internet. Had the internet been more prominent back then it would have been news everywhere.”
Hmm, guess you couldn’t afford a TV or newspaper?
Gees, how did we ever get information before the internet? They must have sent messages via carrier dinosaurs.
February 17th, 2010
@ncaissie
I remember back during the late 90s I used to be on the internet all day long reading stuff about Final Fantasy 7 and Metal Gear Solid 1.
then during the PS2 era the internet was already used by the masses with broadband, DSL, etc.
February 17th, 2010
LOL me too roca.
I had chosen the xbox one though. But by that time I had the internet for 7-8 years already.
February 17th, 2010
Here’s what’s funny about the whole thing you blind Fanboys.
“Consumers have been complaining for more than a year that Sony’s Playstation 2 video game machine stops reading DVDs and certain types of games, often when the unit is just a few months old.”
PS3 Fanboys claim that Microsoft denied the Problem but yet in only a few months they gave the problem a 3 year warrenty. Compare that to complaining for MORE THEN A YEAR about the PS2. They even denied the problem.
“Despite numerous consumer complaints, the company claims it’s an insolated problem.
“I have spoken to numerous people who have called Sony about this — mind you, which isn’t caused by normal wear and tear or misuse of the system — and Sony still refuses to confirm that this is a mistake within the system,†said Andrew of Warren, PA in his report to ConsumerAffairs.com.
The suit charges that PlayStation 2 is not a reliable DVD player and that playing certain DVDs can shut down the unit. Sony denies deceiving consumers.
Sony is fighting the suit and contends the problem is not caused by the unit’s design or by Sony’s manufacturing process. It blames dust particles, dirt, fingerprints and scratches on the discs for the problems.”
Then they settle and this is what you get:
“Now a settlement has been reached which would give consumers who have recently bought, repaired or lost a PS2 with one of the specified model numbers a cheque for USD 25, a free PS2 game from a defined list, or a free or cut-price repair or replacement of their console – at SCEA’s discretion. Full details are available on the settlement website.
Sony has made it clear that the company is not accepting any wrongdoing in agreeing to the settlement”
February 17th, 2010
LOL
That why Microsoft is head and shoulders above Sony anyday. You can say what you want but it’s nothing but denial. 3 Year warrenty Free fixes well after the 1st year. Who could complain about that but a blind PS3 Fanboy.
February 17th, 2010
Liquid
Irish haa
So Your Mother is a drunk Hore with a Guniness. No wonder the Bitch died. Was it just the aids or was it a combo of all 10 diseases. Where is she buried so I can go piss on her grave dig it up and pour some gasaline in and burn the bitch. The death she should have had for have for have a pathetic test tube child like you.
February 17th, 2010
All that really proves CAD, is that the 360′s problems were so widespread they couldn’t ignore it like they initially wanted to. When up to 50% of the 360′s were failing you simply can’t bury your head in the sand and pretend it doesn’t exist.
While there appears to be a problem with some PS2′s according to your source (my launch ps2 still works), they were nowhere near the level of faulty hardware that the 360 had. If they were, rest assured they would have dealt with it like MS did.
I commend the stance MS took, but seriously…lets be honest.. Did they really have a choice?
February 17th, 2010
Spin it any which way you want. It still looks bad and Harry’s case proves it. I can’t wait till they fuck you over so I can laugh my ass off. There is a reason why the PS2 still sells it called replacement units.
February 17th, 2010
rather her be a drunk hore than a fat retarded yank, do everyone a favour here and go kill yourself, u fukin piece of shit, dis is gona come back on you for sayin shit like dat, i hope you baby and u and your ugly obese wife get mangled in around a truck someday, or better yet u stupid imbred fuck, you and your piece of shit family r on a plane and those packys hijack it or set a bomb off, you deserve evrythin you get! i hope for ur sake you dont believe in karma. . . have a look at your child coz it cud be the last time u see it
February 17th, 2010
Harry case doesn’t prove shit unfortunately.
If he bipasses the switch/router it works.
The cable company did the same thing to me with my router. They are not responsibly for third party switches and routers.
The only negative thing about harry’s story is the assholes had him reformat his HDD. that’s a very asshole thing to do. I would have been fuckin pissed. Luckily he already beat infamous and he’s not too far in dead space.
February 17th, 2010
@CAD
here is prove how superior is your 360 POS console
FEB-2008: Xbox 360 failure rates worse than most consumer electronics
DEC-27-06: Microsoft extendeds 90-day warranty to cover systems made before January 1 2006 up to one year from purchase.
DEC-08-06: Class action lawsuit demands $5 million in damages plus free repairs for all Xbox 360s damaged by the Fall update.
DEC-06-06: Angry Xbox owners start online petition to have the game console recalled.
DEC-02-06: Xbox lawsuit in Illinois claims the device overheads and causes the software to freeze and crash.
NOV-24-06: Xbox overheating blamed for Texas house fire.
NOV-18-06: Consumers report defective Xbox 360 hardware switching itself off, games crashing and broken hard-drives.
DEC-05-05: Chicago man sues Microsoft over alleged flaws in the Xbox 360 design.
February 17th, 2010
360 defect rate:
This defect rate is based on claims filed on over 1,000 Xbox warranties, and based on a similar amount of data, the company claims that the Sony PlayStation 3 “hovers in the 3 percent range” for defects and failure. The “red ring of death” problem accounted for 60 percent of these failures, with no specific information provided on what caused the other 40 percent. Microsoft has described these issues as “general hardware failures” in the past, and the company has also claimed that the problems have been engineered out. Whether or not that’s the case is debatable, but this report proves that plenty of consumers are still having problems with their older systems, or systems that have been on the shelves since the “engineering” changes.
SquareTrade doesn’t seem convinced that the issues are over, and CEO Steve Abernethy is even claiming that the percentage could go up.
February 17th, 2010
“Basically it looks like the 3 lights of death are a design flaw.
Inside the 360 the CPU and GPU are both BGA chips. The clamping mechanism used to keep the heatsink on the chip causes all the pressure to be in a tuny point at the centre of the chip with the pressure pushing upwards from the bottom of the board.
This causes the motherboard to flex (MS in their wisdom didn’t secure the board to the base except at the very edges – unlike a PC where the board is screwed down in multiple areas.).
The board flexes and the tiny solder connections on the CPU and GPU break and you get an intermittant problem that slowly gets worse.”
Sorry but no jasper can fix that..now CAD, why dont you have anything bad to say about the PS3. you are a generation behind (should have expected that since you a 360 owner)
February 17th, 2010
In the end if your PS3 breaks down you will have to pay to fix it. If the 360 goes down it’s a Free Fix. I hope your not too blind to see this. Harry is still under his 1 year warrenty with the PS3 and they gave him the finger and denied any wrong doing in the process. Sounds Familiar. I guess nothing has changed.
February 17th, 2010
Liquid
Thanks for admiting she is a Hore LOL Alright I’m done with you. Moving on!!!
February 17th, 2010
changing the topic huh? couldnt bare to face all the your beloved 360 comes with.
and the end of the day, it is unacceptable and it is stupid for someone to support this kind of negligence
February 17th, 2010
@Liquid and CAD
ENOUGH!
Both of you guys went too far. End of. Be the bigger person and end it here.
February 17th, 2010
im ending it
February 17th, 2010
Cad,
Just let it go. There’s nothing that you can say to convince most people that the Xbox360′s failure rate is acceptable. You bringing up the Ps2 issues,Sony’s standard warranty, and failures with the Ps3 system still does not change the fact that the Xbox360 has the greatest failure rate of any gaming console system ever made. Unlike most people, I’m not anti-Xbox360. This is just simply the truth. Did you enjoy Halo Legends?
February 17th, 2010
“The ‘red ring of death’ problem accounted for 60 percent of these failures, with no specific information provided on what caused the other 40 percent… SquareTrade doesn’t seem convinced that the issues are over”
Roca, you are going off of outdated information again. The ArsTechnica article you referenced is from Feb 2008.
Sept 2, 2009, GameSpot:
“SquareTrade found that Xbox 360 quality has improved dramatically since the third quarter of 2008, shortly before the 65nm CPU/GPU ‘Jasper’ model was introduced. Since then, first-year failure rates have plummeted to below the 4 percent the company projected. Looking at 500 units purchased in 2009, SquareTrade found that less than 1 percent had suffered the Red Ring of Death.â€
February 17th, 2010
CAD started it, his is bring back old info when right now every single system (including PS2) have lower defect ration than the 360.
and if you believed the defect ration is 4% you must be out of your mind. just go to your local store and see all the dead 360s they have in the back and PS3s are no where to be seen
February 17th, 2010
TBH I’ve had no problems at all with this 360 except it’s too fucking noisy. I can only play it when the MRs is at work, I get told off if she’s asleep lol.
February 18th, 2010
“Spin it any which way you want. It still looks bad and Harry’s case proves it. I can’t wait till they fuck you over so I can laugh my ass off. There is a reason why the PS2 still sells it called replacement units”
@CAD
Cad i think they already did, some people here already had to buy a new slim coz their earlier ps3 systems died, so much for the bulletproof reliability lol
February 18th, 2010
“go to your local store and see all the dead 360s”
Again, old models, the new models are on par or even better than PS3, at least according to the research.
February 18th, 2010
‘the new models are on par or even better than PS3, at least according to the research’
Might be true but tbh I have a REALLY hard time believing that… but i’ve been wrong before.
February 18th, 2010
Where does squaretrade get its info?
February 18th, 2010
Themselves.
“Electronics-warranty company SquareTrade has issued a survey of 16,000 game consoles it serviced from the second quarter of 2007 to the first quarter of 2009. The report analyzed approximately 2,500 PlayStation 3s, 2,500 Xbox 360s and 11,000 Wiis selected at random. (The company found Wii owners much more likely to buy warranties.) All consoles had been purchased new and had not been damaged by their owners.”
February 18th, 2010
laughable……must 360 users go directly to MS for their replacement of their dead 360. and MS has been silent about the actual numbers for years.
Twilight bought a Jasper 360 in December and didnt even last 2 months. there’s proof enough to know that they motherboard design has not been fixed yet.
the Jasper all die too, most of gamestops dead 360s are elites which is the standard model now and also the Jasper model. Thanks
February 18th, 2010
@Roca,
Thats what I was thinking. I believe the numbers don’t tell the “whole truth”.
Why would someone buy a third party hardware warranty when MS already has a three year warranty in place?
All we know is that a similar amount of PS3 and 360 owners “cashed in on” their paid warranty.
While this is not indicative of how all businesses work, I’ve been told my some electronics dept employees that after I get their warranty, prior to it ending, bring the device in a say its broken. You get it replaced with a brand new one or equal (newer model) if they no longer have the one you had. They return the broken product to the manufacturer anyway.
February 18th, 2010
@Phranc
gamestop used to take RROD 360s as a trade-in (with a defective fee) untill last month. I wonder why they suddenly stopped accepting RROD 360s, could it be because the defect ratio is still high?
but hey, relying on a 3rd party warranty numbers is all they have……since MS themselves won’t even release their “so callled” lower defect ratio
February 18th, 2010
“Just let it go. There’s nothing that you can say to convince most people that the Xbox360’s failure rate is acceptable. You bringing up the Ps2 issues,Sony’s standard warranty, and failures with the Ps3 system still does not change the fact that the Xbox360 has the greatest failure rate of any gaming console system ever made.”
Twilight
No one said that failure rate was acceptable. Who really wants RROD. But in light of the problem you can also say that the 360 is the best warrenty supported console ever. When you compare the two companies and their attitude towards after sale support it becomes evident that a 360 pruchase is a purchase with the comfort in mind that you are protected for a good 3 years. And many first hand experienced people have come out and said they got warrenty work well after the 1st year for other problems. Unfortunatly the same cannot be said about Sony. There is no guarantee that they will fix your PS3 even within the 1st year warrenty just look at Harry’s case. It’s a dame shame.
February 18th, 2010
It’s also the same attitude carried over since the PS2 Class action lawsuit.
February 18th, 2010
“360 is the best warrenty supported console ever”
yeah……one year for normal issues like every other console. hah
February 18th, 2010
@Cad
I luv how you keep saying “look at Harrys case” lol U would think the first 15 times would have been significant? Anyway if Harry would of had a decent surge protector then more than likely he would not be having this issue. So how exactly is Sony responsible for this paticular problem??
February 18th, 2010
And WHY did M$ come up with this so called best warranty anyway? I think you know it wasnt out of the kindness of there hearts. lol
February 19th, 2010
“laughable……must 360 users go directly to MS for their replacement of their dead 360. and MS has been silent about the actual numbers for years.”
The warranties referenced here were purchased only with brand new units, PS3, 360, and Wii. I used SquareTrade’s numbers. Their information was good enough for you to quote word for word earlier in this same thread, is it not good enough now that I posted updated information from the same source you used… all of a sudden? Hmmm… I wonder why.
February 19th, 2010
my source was to show CAD the many things you can find online regarding the shitty 360 hardware.
the fact is the newer models are as shitty as the previous ones. until you bring actual Microsoft figures or until M$ decides to not hide them anymore then you might have a valid argument.
the fact that the 3-year warranty on RRoD systems is still in place just show that they have not fixed anything.
February 19th, 2010
@Cad
I luv how you keep saying “look at Harrys case†lol U would think the first 15 times would have been significant?
Yeah I would have thought so to but to many idiots that can’t comprehend mean repetition.
Oh and Harry did have a surge protector. If the PS3 does not work and it’s under the 1 year warrenty there should be no questions in replacing it. But this is Sony were talking about!
February 19th, 2010
Roca
I don’t need to know the problems with the 360 I already know them and accept them and so far it’s been great with 1 replacement in the last 4 year and it only took 1 week. On the other hand you prefer to stay in denial and close your ears to anything negative about the PS3 no matter how true it is.
February 19th, 2010
“If the PS3 does not work and it’s under the 1 year warrenty there should be no questions in replacing it. But this is Sony were talking about!”
the warranty doesnt cover confusion or false claims…sorry.
February 19th, 2010
“the fact is the newer models are as shitty as the previous ones.”
Using your own words here that were simultaneously posted with outdated information from the same source:
“SquareTrade doesn’t seem…”
…to agree with your statement. I would even venture to say that they are a more credible unbiased source than you roca.
“until you bring actual Microsoft figures or until M$ decides to not hide them anymore then you might have a valid argument.”
It wouldn’t matter if they did, you would just say they were lying. Independent third parties are the best source of information you can have for this sort of thing anyway.
You seem to be confused and making false claims roca… sorry.
February 22nd, 2010
the only one confused here is you and you trolling about some stupid 3rd party company who put out numbers based on 2,500 consoles out of nearly 40M consoles.
the fact that MS has been shy to “promote” their lower defect rates and maybe rebuild the 360 reputation says alot.
my friend has gone though 2 Jasper elites and Twilight’s Jasper 360 didnt even last 2 months. all gamestop have a graveyard full of 360s.
February 22nd, 2010
after BBC put out the PS3 defect ratio base on “a selected amount of consoles” and not the total amount of Consoles out, Sony responded by saying that out the 3 million + console they have sold in UK, only 0.5% of them have come back defect.
Sony is not shy about it because they can backup their claim with reliability…MS has been shit about it because…….guess what…they have not produce a reliable console yet.
February 23rd, 2010
“some stupid 3rd party company”
uhmmmm… this is the same “stupid 3rd party company” you quoted earlier on this same thread as a credible source… change of heart? All of a sudden??? Surprise.
February 23rd, 2010
do u even read the whole converstation before you post a comment.
about my comment on the “3rd party company”…I said:
“my source was to show CAD the many things you can find online regarding the shitty 360 hardware”
I was not using it as a reliable source….it was just because CAD was bring shit up about PS2 issues…so I did the same for the 360.
February 24th, 2010
Yes, and you preceded your original SquareTrade quote with things like “here is prove how superior is your 360 POS console” and “360 defect rate:” as if it were fact, and as long as it was putting the 360 in a bad light, there was no question on your part as far as the source’s credibility. Then when a more recent quote was found showing the vast improvement of the 360 hardware and a nominal defect rate, it is a “stupid 3rd party company” that isn’t credible. Well, that same source was credible enough for GameSpot and other gaming news sites to use as a legitimate source, so again, I still think it is more credible than you (or I, for that matter) as a source for the 360′s new model reliability.
February 24th, 2010
you horribly failed again dude
Sony answered the critics with actual numbers…MS has been hiding like little girls
February 24th, 2010
Nothing beats independent third parties for actual numbers.