Backlash against Microsoft’s Creative Director comments regarding “always on” consoles unwarranted

April 5, 2013

Opinion: Backlash against Microsoft’s Creative Director comments regarding “always on” consoles blown out of proportionWhen Microsoft Studio’s Creative Director, Adam Orth exchanged tweets with Bioware’s Manveer Heir regarding the topic of ‘always-on’ consoles, the Internet caught wind of it and decided to rise up against the man. Now, Microsoft has issued an official statement regarding Orth’s tweets.

This whole drama started when Orth and Manveer had a friendly back-and-forth on twitter regarding the topic of devices being “always on.”

Orth stated:

Sorry, I don’t get the drama around having an”always on” console. Every device now is “always on. That’s the world we live in.

Manveer responded by stating:

Did you learn nothing from Diablo III or SimCity? You know some people’s internet goes out right? Deal with it is a shitty reason

This was in response to Orth’s earlier tweets giving examples of things that can go out such as electricity and shoddy mobile reception. He then told Manveer to “deal with it,” which was quickly picked up across the Inter web and interpreted as a message towards potential Xbox 720 buyers.

When others started to criticize Orth on his twitter page, he responded by stating:

Sorry for expressing my personal opinion about what I want from the electronic devices that I pay for on Twitter. Jesus.

Of course by then there was a 175 page post on NeoGAF with everyone up in arms against Microsoft with the belief that Orth had confirmed that the Xbox 720 would have an always online connection. Even other media outlets picked up the story and wrote that Orth had confirmed that the Xbox 720 would require an always online DRM connection.

Mob mentality is a dangerous thing and we just saw an example of it in action on the Internet. Clearly, Orth is just giving his personal opinion as he stated and no where in his tweets does he indicate that the Xbox 720 will require an always online connection.

Orth is on the studio side of things at Microsoft and quite frankly its not surprising that he supports consoles being “always on” as many developers do in across many studios. Its no secret that most developers are unhappy over the fact that they are not compensated for second hand used sales of their creative work.  

Judging from his banter with David Jaffe back in 2007, after working together at Sony on the God of War series, Orth just seems like a strongly opinionated fellow. In that conversation, they were discussing Halo’s Believe commercial where Orth stated:

Adam: that ad is insulting "belive"? come on

Adam: well, for 1, i think it’s disrespectcful to actual veterans of real wars and 2, they really expect people to become that invested in the halo story? i guess i just really dislike halo and that ad aint helping

Adam: halo = meh

Adam: f*** halo

The issue with his comments regarding always online consoles had become so big Orth had to lock down his twitter page after Microsoft issued an official statement about the incident.

We apologize for the inappropriate comments made by an employee on Twitter yesterday. This person is not a spokesperson for Microsoft, and his personal views do not reflect the customer centric approach we take to our products or how we would communicate directly with our loyal consumers.  We are very sorry if this offended anyone, however we have not made any announcements about our product roadmap, and have no further comment on this matter.

While I don’t think Orth’s decision to post those comments publically on twitter was wise politically for his career, I do think the reaction is somewhat unwarranted towards the guy. After all this was his personal twitter page and he stated that it was his personal opinion. If the internet is out for blood they may just get it with Orth’s head on a platter.

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94 Responses to “Backlash against Microsoft’s Creative Director comments regarding “always on” consoles unwarranted”

  1. twilight:

    Well, I certainly hope Microsoft isn’t dumb enough to release a system that requires an always online internet connection to work. Just because millions of people are currently connected online doesn’t mean that we want to rely on our internet connection to operate our system. Things happen and nothing is infallible. It would be terrible if something happened to your internet connection and you couldn’t use your system to play your games. However, Microsoft has not made an official announcement yet so we will have to wait and see. It seems that an Atari spokesperson is quite excited about the next generation Microsoft system. He has already predicted that the next generation Microsoft system would win the console war. He’s a confident man. I wouldn’t even begin to predict a next generation console winner. I think it is too early to declare a next generation console winner. It is going to be a dogfight between Sony and Microsoft next generation. Also, it seems that Gamestop is calling the next generation Xbox system a very hot, compelling device. We’ll see.

  2. phranctoast:

    Lol. MS couldn’t win the console war with a year head start.

  3. twilight:

    That’s because Sony is continuing to release some exclusive games at the end of this generation unlike Microsoft who has never really had very many exclusive titles. There are many people who are wanting to play The Last Of Us as we’ll as other Sony exclusive titles. Even though it doesn’t always pay off, Sony continues to invest in exclusive titles and I love them for that. If Microsoft thinks that they are going to get away with the strategy of relying again only on multi-platform games with exclusive dlc content, then they are going to be in for a rude awakening. Sony needs to improve their network and Microsoft needs to seriously step up in the gaming department.

  4. oldschool1987:

    This man looks to have single handedly brought down Microsoft lmao. He must have been placed inside Microsoft by Sony as a secret agent to bring them down from the inside! That is the only explanation I can think of, can’t imagine someone is actually this stupid n

  5. twilight:

    Anyways, I decided to go ahead and get the latest God Of War game. I am getting ready to check this game out. I finished Gears Of War Judgement awhile back. I hope it is better then Gears Of War Judgement. I am a huge fan of the Gears Of War games but in my opinion the latest Gears game is the worse Gears game ever. The graphics are some of the best graphics ever for a Gears game but the game felt void missing the personality that made Gears games what they are and I hated the countdown to enemies attacking.

  6. CarlB:

    “Lol. MS couldn’t win the console war with a year head start.”

    MS is hardly trying this gen and Sony only just recently caught up to them, after six years, bleeding billions, and having to sell HQ’s just to eke out a modest potential operating income. I obviously prefer PS3, but I wouldn’t be so quick to discount 720 next gen.

  7. phranctoast:

    ” I obviously prefer PS3, but I wouldn’t be so quick to discount 720 next gen.”

    Even with all of Sony screwups MS is still in last place. Since Sony doesn’t appear to be repeating them and MS on all appearances looks to be making some stupid decisions, I’d say I’m leaning on right side of this.

  8. CarlB:

    Even with all of MS screwups Sony is just now matching them in sales. Since MS doesn’t appear to be losing that much ground at all, I wouldn’t lean too much either way.

  9. twilight:

    Microsoft has been the more successful company overall this generation. They have made more money with Xbox live and multi-platform game sales then Ps3 has this entire current generation of gaming. Ps3 overtaking Xbox360 nearly eight years later in unis shipped when the current generation is over is not really all that impressive at all.

  10. phranctoast:

    Even against a console $200 more released a year later MS doesn’t get it done.

    The only console war that seems even debatable after looking at it this way is the one localized to NA.

  11. oldschool1987:

    Carl MS had a full, entire year head start, a cheaper console, massive exclusivity deals, a better and more robust online system and more money (A LOT MORE) spent on marketing and Sony still over took them. That’s pretty bad, in fact its down right embarrassing.

  12. CarlB:

    PS3 had to have a $200 price cut in order to catch up (several years later). It is only just now eking out a small profit per unit sold. The vast changes Sony has made since launch, from the price cut, Netflix, PSN, and Plus were all painfully necessary just to regain the ground Sony had already lost to Microsoft.

  13. CarlB:

    Thankfully Sony was embarrassed enough to retreat from it’s “they’ll get a second job” mentality.

  14. oldschool1987:

    The point is though they DID over take them after a full year head start, less games, worse multiplat ports, less than steller online functionality and a high price tag. Sony turned all that around and caught up with MS. Why are you arguing this point? Arguing for the sake if arguing yet again?

  15. oldschool1987:

    And if anyone should be embarrassed its MS for losing such a high advantage. Sony fixed most mistakes they were making to over take MS. MS keep making more mistakes.

  16. twilight:

    I hate Sony. Oh, why did they do this to me? Why did they have to release a cool red God Of War bundle system? I just couldn’t resist any longer. I just purchased this system. It is such a cool system. I’m glad the store let me return the God Of War Of War Ascension game that I just got since this game comes bundled with the system.

  17. CarlB:

    The point is it’s not just one sided.
    You can’t say Sony made mistakes without admitting Microsoft made just as many, if not several worse mistakes. Despite this, they have improved their position generation over generation, while Sony hasn’t.

    Sony was almost completely dominant last gen.
    They have lost that position completely this gen to Nintendo, while Microsoft has improved in sales generation over generation, Sony has had their sales eroded generation over generation.

  18. phranctoast:

    It speaks volumes for next gen (which is what we’re talking about anyway) In all likelyhood, the PS4 won’t be $200 more than Nextbox or come out a full year later.

    Sony has also proven to be the more consumer friendly company in comparison. From following their tradition of not charging to play games online to non proprietary HDD’s, they simply stand head and shoulders above MS.

    If the Nextbox is always on I can only see this as a negative for MS worldwide. Of course. If they only really care about NA and the UK then it’s no skin off their teeth.
    Lol. When other developers are chiming in with examples as to why this idea is terrible you may need to reconsider your stance.

  19. CarlB:

    Ah, so it’s only meaningless conjecture and speculation about next gen. Very well then.

    “Friendly” and “not charging” doesn’t equate to long term success in running a business, or even survival.

    As for the term “always on” it seems people are already assuming what exactly that means when they really have no idea what Microsoft has planned in reality.

    Not all developers like everything about XBL as well, but I see it hasn’t failed either.
    If Japan was anywhere near relevant to the market as a whole then Microsoft would have already failed miserably.
    Apparently that isn’t the case.
    Lol.

  20. oldschool1987:

    Don’t even bother Phranc. Me and you both know Carl well enough to know he’s arguing just for the sake of it. You say white, he says black. We both know Sony wiped the floor with MS these last couple of years.

  21. CarlB:

    I think it’s fairly clear that Sony’s position is nowhere near what it was last gen, and that they lost a lot of ground while Microsoft gained a lot of ground. Sony didn’t come anywhere near close to “wiping the floor” with MS these last couple of years, let alone this generation. If Sony had they would be clearly dominant as they were last gen instead of fighting to survive by selling HQ’s.

    There’s no argument necessary.
    That’s just the way it is.

  22. gunstar:

    Like I said in 2010 never bet on the losing team.

  23. oldschool1987:

    Yeah ok, Carl.

  24. oldschool1987:

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-netflix-vs-lovefilm-face-off

  25. twilight:

    Microsoft hasn’t announced anything yet but there are heavy rumors recently circulating that a tip person on Microsoft that has never made an error has confirmed that the unit will have an always online connection with built in Kinect that’s not optional. The Kinect is supposedly required for the system to work. Also, it is being reported seperately that this will effect playing single player offline games as well if the internet connection is lost. It is rumored as well that the system will be about $500 with a contract system being sold for $300. If Microsoft actually goes through with this, then many people are certainly are not going to buy the next generation Xbox system.

  26. phranctoast:

    “The point is it’s not just one sided.
    You can’t say Sony made mistakes without admitting Microsoft made just as many, if not several worse mistakes”

    Microsoft’s mistakes inflated their consoles sold numbers. Sony’s mistakes inflated Microsoft’s consoles sold numbers.

    “Ah, so it’s only meaningless conjecture and speculation about next gen. Very well then. ”

    With only one console officially announced I figured this much was obvious. Of course the rumors spreading are from pretty official sources, especially when one of their own chimes in…..

    ““Friendly” and “not charging” doesn’t equate to long term success in running a business, or even survival.”

    It sure can. If enough people rather have a real subscription service rather than one derived of withholding services that are free everywhere else, (including their own PC platform) Consumer base will increase.

    “As for the term “always on” it seems people are already assuming what exactly that means when they really have no idea what Microsoft has planned in reality. ”

    Of course it’s still too early to tell, but you have to admit.. When a MS creative director chimes in with his opinion, it speaks volumes..

    “I think it’s fairly clear that Sony’s position is nowhere near what it was last gen, and that they lost a lot of ground while Microsoft gained a lot of ground. Sony didn’t come anywhere near close to “wiping the floor” with MS these last couple of years, let alone this generation. If Sony had they would be clearly dominant as they were last gen instead of fighting to survive by selling HQ’s. ”

    How is this even relevant?
    These things occurred because of the high initial cost of the PS3, and the year head start the 360 had.

    If MS doesn’t have these two negatives to rely on, how can you even pretend that the Nextbox has a serious chance in the console war?

    Which company would be missed the least.
    http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=536382

  27. phranctoast:

    The Memes are great so far.

    http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/525/096/8b4.jpg

  28. phranctoast:

    http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/525/811/e7c.jpg

  29. phranctoast:

    http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/525/097/e93.jpg

  30. twilight:

    Also, keep in perspective as well that unlike Microsoft, Sony has their hands all over the place. Sony is involved in everything from movies to music to computers to tv’s. Sony has taken more losses because of involvements in other things as well.

  31. phranctoast:

    Stop talking sense twilight. Things like that hurt Carlb’s “Selling HQ’s” point….

    As if Sony needs to sell HQ’s because of the Playstation brand alone.

  32. CarlB:

    “How is this even relevant?”

    Generally speaking, losing billions year after year is not the way to ensure a future in business. Vita’s a loss. PS3′s profit margin is nominal. Sony’s best business now, ironically, is life insurance, not electronics; and while losing millions instead of billions (or perhaps even making a hundred million or so this year) is not as bad, it’s still way deep in the red overall, and they have no headquarters left to sell in order to maintain an operating income.

    Yeah. Money is kind of “relevant” to a corporation and it’s ability to continue manufacturing and marketing products.

  33. CarlB:

    http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2013/02/playstation-vita-failure/

  34. phranctoast:

    Ok. So it’s not relevant at all as to which console will come out on top next gen. Thank you for explaining how insignificant your points have been.

    Was I supposed to read between the lines to make out what you’re really saying?

    Do you refuse to take a side because you think Sony will go out for business?

    Will Sony lose the console war because they will have to start charging people to play online (something they already refuted)

    Will Sony marketing come to a complete standstill because they can no longer afford to, therefore making you unsure where to place your bet?

    I think pointing out that the console will not be priced in the stratosphere to begin with, and not launching a year later and Sony still bested MS, are fairly significant in predicting the outcome of the next console war.

  35. phranctoast:

    UK Retail: ‘Xbox 720 always-on connection must not happen’

    http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/retail-xbox-720-always-on-connection-must-not-happen/0113667

    “Having said that, I do not think the UK broadband infrastructure is robust/fast enough for this to be a prerequisite.

    Surely last month’s teething troubles with SimCity are a warning for this?”

    “As for the rest of us, tough titty.”

    “Not all of our customers are online and not everyone is on the internet so that could damage it. In the UK, our internet infrastucture is way behind the rest of the world and if a game cuts out, that will upset people.”

  36. twilight:

    As far as the next generation goes Phranctoast, I will say this. If all of the rumors end up being true about Microsoft ‘s next generation system, then things are not going to go all that well for Microsoft next generation. Many gamers are not happy as it is paying to access online services and now on top of all of this they are restricting gamers forcing the Kinect on them with an unnecessary always online connection and the possibility of used games being blocked as well. Yeah, good luck with all of this. If they implement these things, this would be the ultimate middle finger to Microsoft’s loyal gamers all in the name of corporate greed.

  37. phranctoast:

    This has gotten so carried away that people are suspecting that Microsoft themselves have been trickling out false terrible news, so when they finally do announce it, anything they say otherwise will be viewed as great news.

  38. CarlB:

    It seems relevant in so much as PS4′s lifespan and success depends on it’s parent’s financial resources directly. Those resources have begun to dry up, and it appears as though Vita is the first casualty (or at least the first to be seriously injured). PS4 may not be beyond a similar fate in the years to come if Sony continues to bleed money next gen as it has this gen. The good news is Kaz seems to have stanched most of it with the restructuring.

    I tend to take my own “side” which doesn’t fall completely in either camp, however, even when I see inherent problems, I’m still willing to make the purchase. I saw and mentioned the problems Vita is having now before it’s release, but decided to buy it and enjoy what I can on it anyway. Vita still exists, but it’s software lineup has suffered extensively.

    Sony says a lot of things which don’t always turn out to be true in the long run (“they’ll get a second job”, no trophies, 16 million Vitas and PSP sold for the year, The Last Guardian 2011 release date, won’t announce before Microsoft, etc.).

    What they haven’t announced is a price, a specific release date (which could be delayed anyway as it has been in the past), or even the territories it will be released in initially. I think the lack of this information, combined with the lack of solid information about 720, makes “predicting the outcome of the next console war” a bit premature, though I’m more than willing to discuss some tendencies and factors.

    As is, this generation seems to be a near draw at this point between 360 and PS3 in software and hardware, with Nintendo the clear winner in consoles sold.

    What interests me now, more than the “console war”, is the long term view and judging Sony by it’s own past, as Microsoft is a relative newcomer with this being it’s first full generation of console hardware.

    In that light, both PS3 and Vita are underperforming their predecessors. I don’t see PS4 matching PS3′s numbers for it’s lifecycle (though it may outpace PS3 initially).

    Factors:

    Exclusives:

    As PS3 has less exclusives than PS2, I also see PS4 having less exclusives than PS3. However, if 720 maintains 360′s rate of exclusives, then I believe PS4 will at least have more than 720, which isn’t saying much, but still a plus for Sony.

    Hardware:

    Specs on paper may appear to give PS4 the advantage. However, even if they do, when it comes to the end product there will probably be even less of a noticeable difference between PS4 and 720 games than there was this gen. If 720 includes Blu-ray, then that is one less factor next gen where Sony had an advantage this gen. At the same time, it could also mean that every 720 sold still supports Sony.

    Price:

    This is also where financial health of the corporation comes into play. Microsoft may be in a much better position to sell 720 at a loss than Sony is to sell PS4 at a loss. Additionally, Microsoft may also be in a better position for necessary price drops.

    UI:

    Kinect seems to have gained ground over Move in this area, and the handful of games designed for it that work well (dance, exercise, kid’s games) seem to be more popular. Refining and improving both the UI and games for Kinect should be relatively easy, especially if Kinect is in every box, as developers will be more likely to support it with such assurances in numbers. Sony’s stance and future with Eye/Move, from what they’ve shown (puppet demo?), seems more nebulous/novelty at this point, much as it has been in the past. Still, the Eye bar looks as though it will be able to do almost everything Kinect can, so developers may have that much more reason to make games designed for both.

    Apps/subscription services:

    Personally, I think Sony is the clear winner now with PSN and PSN+, but even with it’s pay wall, XBLG is steadily gaining subscribers, and what is likely to be more money for Microsoft’s coffers. Microsoft has the luxury of adding value as necessary, and or simply adding more apps/services behind it’s pay wall as it has been.

    I think this is the most important factor that will differentiate 720/PS4. If PSN+/XBLG remain similar next gen, Sony should advertise the added benefits of Plus as much as possible, as often as possible.

    I think streaming games will be started next gen and both boxes have an equally good chance of being successful with it.

  39. phranctoast:

    http://blogs.technet.com/b/microsoft_blog/archive/2013/04/08/mediaroom-and-our-tv-journey.aspx

    “The following is a post from Yusuf Mehdi, Corporate Vice President of Marketing, Strategy and Business for the Interactive Entertainment Business at Microsoft.

    Today, Microsoft and Ericsson announced a definitive agreement for Ericsson to acquire Mediaroom, the number one IPTV platform deployed by TV operators around the world. This acquisition is mutually beneficial and strategically aligned for both parties. Ericsson will continue to invest in the growth and success of Mediaroom to the benefit of customers, employees, and the industry. It allows Microsoft to commit 100 percent of its focus on consumer TV strategy with Xbox.

    We are proud of the world-class engineering and business achievements within Mediaroom. They have a rich history of driving innovation in IPTV. As early pioneers, they built the infrastructure to stream video on limited bandwidth, and today they enable multiscreen entertainment experiences for pay TV subscribers. Mediaroom has contributed to the evolution of TV and powers 22 million set-top boxes today in 11 million subscriber households.

    With the sale of Mediaroom, Microsoft is dedicating all TV resources to Xbox in a continued mission to make it the premium entertainment service that delivers all the games and entertainment consumers want – whether on a console, phone, PC or tablet. And with 76 million Xbox 360 consoles around the world with 46 million Xbox LIVE members, it is a mission that gets us out of bed in the morning.

    It is not a mission that we can achieve alone. We want to partner with the industry to deliver the next wave of innovation in games and consumer entertainment. We will partner with content creators, studios, labels, networks, content aggregators, operators and distributors to make this happen. We believe the future of home entertainment is one where TV becomes more simple, tailored and intelligent. We believe the best is yet to come for this industry.

    Our vision and energy for the future of entertainment is more focused than ever. Stay tuned.”

    I posted this article for two reasons. One, to show where Microsoft’s focus appears to be aimed. And two, to show the difference in consoles sold versus people connected online to Live. I imagine that number signifies All Live members, including Silver and Gold (as it has in the past), and that’s a big number of console sold that were never hooked up online. Maybe the always online thing is not a good idea for next gen…..

  40. CarlB:

    “It would seem Microsoft is building in elements that could be used positively: games updated automatically, reduced load times, reduced piracy…

    It could be that Microsoft has decided that customers who buy second-hand and are not connected are not profitable customers, and it would be more profitable to have a much smaller market with users who are willing to pay for entertainment and who spend constantly online.

    Block second-hand and force a constant connection and the market will shrink rapidly, but Microsoft will still make a profit.”

    At some point streaming and downloaded games are going to reach a tipping point over discs… could be sooner rather than later.

    Ultimately, if “always on” does happen on 720, it will probably be akin to Steam with a disc option, and if their pricing adjusted accordingly, I don’t see them going under.

    Of course gamers in general would probably initially flock to PS4 if this was the case, but at the same time 720 could be much more profitable not only to Microsoft, but also to developers and publishers over time, starting with a smaller base of customers.

    Sure not everyone has an internet connection, but the number that does is likely to increase and not decrease throughout the years next gen.

  41. CarlB:

    “The Xbox 360 and PS3 both have GPUs that can handle about 200 gigaFLOPS… Sony’s PlayStation 4 will push the console space up to 1.8 teraFLOPS later this year… 4.5 teraFLOPS (is) possible in Nvidia’s current high-end Titan PC graphics cards.”

    http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/04/nvidia-vp-next-mobile-chip-generation-will-outperform-xbox-360-ps3/

  42. twilight:

    Lol. Leave it to CarlB to come with points in favor of a practice that screws gamers over. There is nothing good about any of this for gamers if these rumors end up being true.

  43. CarlB:

    Lol. I didn’t come up with the points, they were taken straight out of phranc’s link. Publishers and devs are the ones getting screwed by all the retailers taking their money when they sell used games. The only real factor here with gamers is price, and if the price for games goes down to account for the change, then there shouldn’t be a problem. Gamers who already buy and keep their games anyway won’t be “screwed” at all. If it winds up being nightmarish as people are making it out to be, then it probably won’t be sustainable and it won’t be a concern anyway. This reminds me of when people thought DLC and downloadable games were the end of the world. People hype this shit up in their own minds beyond reason, whereas reality winds up being quite different.

  44. phranctoast:

    I can’t see blocking used games at this point being a smart move for any game maker at the time. I personally lean towards some distaste towards the profiteering of large scale resellers and screwing the game makers as a result. Even with that said, and me not buying used games from companies like GameStop, I still think its unwise for any company to block it from fear of being very anti consumer.

  45. CarlB:

    Microsoft found a way to make it through RRoD and design XBLG to be even more profitable than it was before. If anyone could make blocking used games work it would be them. I doubt Microsoft has any fear of being labeled “anti-consumer” at this point.

  46. phranctoast:

    Lol. Correction. “More Anti-consumer”.

  47. CarlB:

    “I personally lean towards some distaste towards the profiteering of large scale resellers and screwing the game makers as a result.”

    Gamers are essential to that equation, so in essence, they are screwing the game makers just as much. Not to mention the number of small scale resellers.

  48. CarlB:

    I was under the impression they were being labeled “more anti-consumer” with each passing year this gen.
    This doesn’t seem to have stopped them.
    Sentiment isn’t a roadblock for Microsoft, whereas if anything can be monetized further, they’re probably the ones to make it happen.

  49. twilight:

    CarlB this not something to be taken lightly and I definitely understand people’s reaction to these rumors.
    Anyways, Microsoft has already crossed the anti-consumer threshold. They are the absolute worse gaming company of this current generation and there is no limit to how low Microsoft will go. If the rumors end up being true, I hope people boo Microsoft off the stage.

  50. phranctoast:

    ” Publishers and devs are the ones getting screwed by all the retailers taking their money when they sell used games”

    What people don’t seem to fathom is that the sale of used products don’t stop new product sales, and can even increase sales numbers of new products. Think about it. At one point a product was not on the market. Then the (new) product is. Many buy it new. They talk about how great the product is, perhaps even showing it to a few people or letting them borrow it for a time. The demand for the product is increased the more exposure it gets. The market increases along with that increased demand.
    For instance, if there is only 1 million of a product new in the market, and 2 million people get to use it, they spread that exposure further to increase demand even further, resulting in more new product sales. Take out the instrument that creates and extends that exposure (in this case used product sales), or even reduce that instrument’s capability artificially, and you reduce exposure and in turn demand for the product.

    “Sentiment isn’t a roadblock for Microsoft, whereas if anything can be monetized further, they’re probably the ones to make it happen.”

    You’re probably right. If anyone knows how to screw the small guy and have them ask for seconds it’s Microsoft.

  51. phranctoast:

    “CarlB this not something to be taken lightly and I definitely understand people’s reaction to these rumors.
    Anyways, Microsoft has already crossed the anti-consumer threshold. They are the absolute worse gaming company of this current generation and there is no limit to how low Microsoft will go. If the rumors end up being true, I hope people boo Microsoft off the stage.”

    Lol. I’m surprised EA somehow beat them out for worst company of the year once again.

  52. CarlB:

    I used to have the same thoughts on used games and the positive exposure they could provide. Now I think it’s fairly easy for a video game to get the exposure it needs without having to rely on second hand sales.

    Whatever benefit there is from used game sales exposure is heavily outweighed by the revenues the game creators lose. Every single used game can be resold several times and the creators see no profit from those sales, whereas if each game had DRM similar to Steam the creators see profit (piracy aside) every time the game is sold. If the game isn’t selling enough, then they can simply lower the price via a sale, much as Steam does, though there is a disc involved.

    Now, if used games happen to be taken out of the equation, there is a good chance the price of games themselves would be reduced in order to keep what would normally be used games customers, or at the very least prices would go down faster after the game launched. Also, we’ve seen downloadable games go down in price over time anyway, so gamers would still have the opportunity to save money if they so desired. Another thing is subscription plans for downloadable games (like PSN Plus) and or streaming games would also see a rise in popularity.

    The market tends to balance these things in the long run.

  53. phranctoast:

    Used games will be taken out of the equation soon enough when everything goes digital. There’s no need to rush it when a physical copy is still provided. There’s other ways to push digital games that can’t be resold while not getting that anti consumer feel.

    Like you mentioned, lower the price.
    Or
    Release digital first with a few week window (like movies are doing now)

  54. twilight:

    Well, it’s interesting that you have changed your point of view on this issue CarlB since you have been the main person on this site who has rented and purchased more used games then the anyone else on this site. I never thought you would be in favor of this. Like Phranctoast, I never rent or buy used games anyways. However,I am not in favor of blocking used game sales.

  55. twilight:

    Yeah, a lot of people supposedly hate Ea but yet people continue to buy Ea games by the truckloads. Since I play sports games as well, I end up buying a lot of Ea games. I don’t care for American football all that much but I do especially love Fifa and Grand Slam Tennis 2.

  56. phranctoast:

    “I never thought you would be in favor of this. ”

    Me neither. It’s my guess that Carlb needs to have the counterpoint for every debatable topic making anything he writes appear less genuine.

    “Yeah, a lot of people supposedly hate Ea but yet people continue to buy Ea games by the truckloads.”

    I could write an essay on why MS deserves the title more, and that’s just the gaming division, and not even touching on all the other reasons.

  57. CarlB:

    “Used games will be taken out of the equation soon enough when everything goes digital.”

    Exactly. What incentive do they have to prolong the process?

    “I never thought you would be in favor of this.”

    I never said I was in favor of it. Some things happen regardless of what I’m “in favor” of, in light of that, I try to see what good may come of it, and there always is.

    I always rent now, and probably will as long as I can. If used games/rentals get blocked on 720 and not PS4, then I stick with PS4 as I’ve already planned. If there comes a time when all used games are blocked (all digital as phranc mentioned), I’ll save money where I can and wait for sales, stick with game subscriptions like PSN Plus (this is basically a rental plan anyway), and probably take advantage of streaming games when they come to consoles.

    Just because Microsoft does things I do not favor (XBLG, for instance) doesn’t mean I’m going to stick my head in the sand and ignore it or only see how it is so horrible… it exists for a reason, and as long as it exists, it’s going to have an effect, some of which can be rather pleasant, like PSN+ for instance.

    Some people may wish to stay in their own little emotional/personal bias shell and have their posts reflect the inner walls of that shell to appear more “genuine” to others. I don’t really about what others think or seek their approval, but rather tend to focus on what is happening regardless of people’s “feelings” about it. I care more about reality than “appearances”.

  58. phranctoast:

    “What incentive do they have to prolong the process? ”

    -30 Million consoles out of 76 Million 360′s sold were not hooked up to the internet…

    -The Worlds infrastructure isn’t ready for it.

    -There’s a reason games are shipping on BRD’s…..

    Some people have true opinions on subjects rather than opinion contrived with the sole purpose of making counterpoints. Sure, opinions may change from time to time, but usually not complete 180′s.
    Those are sign that the person in question only wants to be an argumentative ass.

  59. CarlB:

    -46 Million consoles out of 76 Million 360′s sold were hooked up to the internet…

    -The World’s infrastructure is continuously growing.

    -There’s a reason downloadable games are growing in popularity over discs…..

    If the blocking used games rumor is true, it sounds like they are simply getting a head start and skipping all the bullshit.

    Opinions mean little in the face of reality. There is no counterpoint to reality except that which isn’t truth. I’ll stick with truth. Opinions change all the time and in many degrees, from 45 to 180. I’ll stick with the realities of any situation, harsh as it may be to the emotionally hyper-sensitive.

  60. phranctoast:

    “it sounds like they are simply getting a head start and skipping all the bullshit.”

    -If all the bullshit equates to 40% of their past userbase.

    -The World’s infrastructure isn’t growing quick enough to support digital only or physical media wouldn’t be available next gen in the Nextbox.

    -Consoles downloadable games aren’t more popular than discs……

    Disguising opinions as realities doesn’t make it so.

  61. CarlB:

    -If all their past userbase was as profitable then they would have no reason to block used games.

    -The World’s infrastructure has already grown quick enough to represent internet connected consoles as the majority of their existing user base. Including physical media supports retail during the inevitable transition next gen.

    -Console downloadable games are steadily growing in popularity over discs……

    Denying reality in favor of opinions doesn’t change reality.

  62. CarlB:

    “Consoles downloadable games aren’t more popular than discs……”

    Do you have a current link to back this up? I’m “genuinely” interested in reading it ;)

    Back in 2010…

    http://www.destructoid.com/npd-digital-pc-sales-overtake-retail-pc-sales-184424.phtml

    If downloadable revenue (including such things as PSN+) for console games hasn’t overtaken retail revenue for games already it soon will, just as it did for PC games.

  63. phranctoast:

    “Do you have a current link to back this up? I’m “genuinely” interested in reading it”

    http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/npd-group-us-game-market-total-14-8-billion-in-2012-as-digital-distribution-grows-and-physical-game-sales-fall/

    “There were many trends that guided the video game industry across 2012: The rise of crowd-funding development through Kickstarter; the expansion of more developers into free-to-play gaming; and the death of the subscription-based MMORPG to name a few. The most noticeable trend in the industry, HOWEVER, created a pall that hung over it entirely.

    As big studios closed en masse and retail tracking firms reported more and more dour data each quarter, it was clear that 2012 marked the end of the video game industry as primarily a business of physical goods. Cartridges, Blu-ray discs, and every other format began to make way to digital distribution. According to the NPD Group, the digital industry is growing steadily but nowhere near fast enough to replace revenues lost from physical sales.

    The breakdown: In the United States, video game sales (not including hardware like consoles or accessories) totaled $14.8 billion. Of that total, $5.92 billion came from digitally distributed content, including games, DLC, in-app/game purchases and other content. That is a 16 percent jump over digital totals from 2011. Physical game sales, meanwhile, came to $8.88 billion total, a drop of 21-percent from the previous year. Part of that is due to the lack of software released last year. Physical sales are declining faster than digital sales are increasing, thus the 9-percent drop in total video game revenue in 2012.

    It’s important to note that the NPD Group’s data isn’t exact, since many leading digital distribution platforms don’t publicly disclose their sales data. Valve, for example, doesn’t publicly state how much money Steam makes each year. Even the NPD Group’s retail data isn’t 100-percent accurate. It’s only in the last eighteen months that the NPD Group started including sales data from Walmart, one of the largest video game retailers in the country. Its data is accurate and reliable enough to recognize a trend that is fundamentally altering the gaming industry, though.

    The question now is whether or not 2013 will see digital revenues increase at a faster rate? Growth in the digital market is steady, but not swift. Digital revenue grew just 14 percent between 2010 and 2011, compared to the 16 percent jump between 2011 and 2012. There are also a number of new gaming machines on the horizon that could reinvigorate the physical goods market. Sony’s PlayStation 4 (Orbis) and Microsoft’s Xbox 720 (Durango) could spur a recovery of the physical market. In 2012, there were 29-percent less games released across all platforms (barring mobile), so the coming of new consoles and launch games could prove to be a major boon for the industry. The technology would need to excite consumers in a new way though, as the Wii U’s abysmal game sales show that new hardware alone isn’t enough to get people spending.”

  64. phranctoast:

    Things to note:
    This isn’t a game to game comparison for retail vs downloads, as it also includes everything digitally sold including DLC.

    This is only in North America, where the 360 is dominant and the online infrastructure is strong. How would it be elsewhere?

  65. CarlB:

    Thanks. It simply confirms what I already stated, that “downloadable games are growing in popularity over discs”:

    “it was clear that 2012 marked the end of the video game industry as primarily a business of physical goods. Cartridges, Blu-ray discs, and every other format began to make way to digital distribution.”

    Not only are the popularity of downloadable games (and DLC, etc.) increasing, but they are doing so while physical game sales decline. Digital console game revenue represents a 16% increase while physical retail declined 21%. “Physical sales are declining faster than digital sales are increasing, thus the 9-percent drop in total video game revenue in 2012… data is accurate and reliable enough to recognize a trend that is fundamentally altering the gaming industry”

    It seems Sony has also caught on to this as well:

    “Every single PS4 game will be released digitally, while only some will be released on disc.
    The truth that physical releases are probably already in the minority on PS3 (when smaller PSN releases are factored in) is often forgotten, but still – this stark statement of intent from Sony is certainly significant.

    ‘We’re shifting our platform more and more to the digital side – PS4 will be similar to PS Vita in that every game will be available as a digital download, and some will also be available as a disc.’

    The real question is whether Sony will choose to make its digital releases competitive with retail. At the moment games tend to be sold at full RRP online, while the UK’s retailers will discount this significantly – particularly online.

    If this unbalance is addressed then it will be a further nail in the coffin for physical distribution.”

    http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/digital-to-significantly-outnumber-physical-on-ps4-release-schedule/0111398

  66. phranctoast:

    Don’t thank me yet, unfortunately it’s not a straight 1:1 comparison. Physical media only counts games while digital counts everything (games,DLC,ect)
    Please note. I’m not in denial of the growth of downloadable games and content just stating that we’re clearly not ready for a download only infrastructure. It says a lot when 40% of the purchased Xbox 360′s never made it online and MS plans on having an always online console Next gen.
    Can you please explain to me how a drop in 40% of the consoles sold could be a welcoming prospect?

  67. CarlB:

    I’m not sure what you are basing “not ready” on.
    iOS and Android are doing fine (actually much better) with a download only infrastructure, and it’s clear that 720 is said to be using retail discs regardless, so I’m not sure what your concern is, let alone how you equate that to a “40%” drop in consoles sold.

  68. phranctoast:

    Smartphones are a different entity altogether. The service provider includes Internet at an extra costs usually without choice with the phones you mentioned.

    30 million of the 76 million 360′s were never hooked up online. Do the math.

  69. CarlB:

    Which is probably why they are including retail disc compatibility for another entire gen.
    Having to be connected to the internet in 2014, if that’s even true, doesn’t necessarily equate to a loss of 30 million customers, which is reflective of 2012 and 360 customers, not 2014 and 720 customers.

  70. CarlB:

    And to be fair, that’s seven years into 360′s lifespan, which would be around the year 2020 for 720.

  71. CarlB:

    And when I mentioned iOS and Android, I wasn’t talking about just smartphones, but tablets, which are predicted to overtake desktop shipments this year and laptop shipments next year.
    http://www.fiercecmo.com/story/idc-tablet-shipments-projected-overtake-pcs-laptops/2013-03-31

  72. phranctoast:

    “Which is probably why they are including retail disc compatibility for another entire gen.
    Having to be connected to the internet in 2014, if that’s even true, doesn’t necessarily equate to a loss of 30 million customers, which is reflective of 2012 and 360 customers, not 2014 and 720 customers.”

    What it equates to is 40% of the current 360 purchasers, as of when the MS rep revealed the stats, not having their console online. They’ve had plenty of time to do so. Throughout the generation. So close to half of the consoles sold are not online as of 2013. Does it make sense to release a console with an online necessity at the end of 2013 where almost half the previous generation purchasers are left out?
    Sure it will change as time goes on, but I can’t see anything positive by requiring that type of connection initially when MS’s own revealed statistics show such a high percentage of their own sold consoles are in the dark.
    Maybe the 40% represents repeat buyers of failed consoles ;)
    It’s certainly higher than I would have speculated.

  73. phranctoast:

    Nice link, but it fails to show devices connected online, just devices sold. Some of them could be 3G , some of the may rely on a third party wireless solution not mentioned.

    What it does show is MS’s monopoly on consumer electronic computing dwindling.

  74. twilight:

    Well, Microsoft hasn’t officially announced their next generation system yet but many Xbox360 users are upset about the always online connection and I don’t blame them. It would not be good to not be able to play a single player game if you have a problem with your internet. Some are so upset about this issue that they have actually written letters to Microsoft corporate about this. Microsoft hasn’t announced anything yet so they have time to address this issue if they choose to.

  75. phranctoast:

    Sony’s in a very strong position right now IMO.

    With all the negative publicity (even if unearned, as MS didn’t officially announce anything yet…) Sony should go out of their way to tackle some of the similar concerns right off the bat.

    Sony outright already confirmed no native BC in the PS4, but provided a Streaming solution. Maybe they can dedicate time presenting this solution prior to Nextbox getting any official time in the media. Yes..it’s far from a perfect solution, as it will require an internet connection.

    They can reiterate that the console will work without a 24/7 internet connection.

    Reiterate how used games can still be played.

    Have another PS4 conference to undermine the Nextbox’s, showing games, and more games.

    Make sure when the rest of the news gets announced, like price, release date and territories a full playable console is there for people to actually play. Playing games versus watching presentations will be a big deal.

  76. CarlB:

    “So close to half of the consoles sold are not online as of 2013.”

    60% (aka, the majority) of the consoles sold were online in 2012. Last year. I doubt that number will remain static or decline in 2013, and even a 10% increase in connected consoles is a rather reasonable estimate for 2013 considering digital game revenue increased 16% and physical game revenue decreased 21%.

    So that leaves about 70% representing what is likely the most profitable portion (90% of revenues?) of the userbase by far in 2013. And that’s with the world’s infrastructure as is, at the very start of a generation which will likely see infrastructure capabilities increase at least 25% by 2020.

    Microsoft is only adding BD to shore up retail and give people one less reason to purchase PS4. It is in their best interest to push digital over disc just as much or even more next gen as they have this one, as that is where the money is, they don’t have nearly as much vested interest in BD as Sony does, and that is where the overwhelming trend is heading relatively swiftly and steadily.

    “it fails to show devices connected online”

    It’s safe to conclude the majority of tablets are also connected online:

    “there are now more than a half-billion home-based devices connected to the Internet, and the combination of smartphones and tablets now exceeds the “installed base of computers,” according to a research firm.”

    http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/gadgetbox/us-homes-have-more-half-billion-internet-connected-devices-1C8929794

    “American homes have more Internet-connected devices than people… the overall number of connected devices per household is 5.7. This is more than twice the average number of people per household. The proliferation of connected devices is primarily fueled by tablet sales”
    h**p://venturebeat.com/2013/03/18/american-homes-have-more-internet-connected-devices-than-people/

    “…Its analysis shows that in the last 3 months ago more than 9 million people moved up from regular cell phones to smartphones and 18 million more consumers have purchased a tablet device”
    h**p://www.upi.com/Science_News/Technology/2013/03/19/US-connects-500-million-Internet-devices/UPI-77931363743851/

    “96 of Tablet users use the internet on their tablet”
    “Mobile, Tablet, and Internet Usage 2012″ (pdf, Germany)

    “22 percent of citizens or 1 in 5 people in the United States do not use the Internet” (April 2012)”
    h**p://www.padgadget.com/2012/04/16/new-study-19-of-u-s-owns-tablets-22-use-no-internet/

  77. CarlB:

    This is the kind of SSD/HDD hybrid I was talking about in the earlier thread:

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-13845_3-57578817-58/get-a-1-terabyte-hybrid-ssd-for-$119.99-shipped/

  78. phranctoast:

    “What it equates to is 40% of the current 360 purchasers, as of when the MS rep revealed the stats, not having their console online. They’ve had plenty of time to do so. Throughout the generation. So close to half of the consoles sold are not online as of 2013. Does it make sense to release a console with an online necessity at the end of 2013 where almost half the previous generation purchasers are left out?
    Sure it will change as time goes on, but I can’t see anything positive by requiring that type of connection initially when MS’s own revealed statistics show such a high percentage of their own sold consoles are in the dark.
    Maybe the 40% represents repeat buyers of failed consoles ;)
    It’s certainly higher than I would have speculated.”

    nuff said.

    Smartphones and tablets are a different entity altogether and aren’t a good representative of the console market and home internet infrastructure.

    “This is the kind of SSD/HDD hybrid I was talking about in the earlier thread”

    Not a bad price, but I dismissed the notion then as it still has moving parts that can wear hurting SSD’s biggest plus from the earlier thread.

  79. CarlB:

    It’s not so hard to understand why they might focus more on what will likely be the 80% next gen that is probably 80% more profitable than the 20%.

    Smartphones and tablets now represent the majority of game revenue, and now that they have processors to match PS3 (or soon will), along with a whole slew of console type controllers coming, will likely only continue to increase that game revenue.

    They may not represent the console market directly but they have already influenced it heavily. Tablet sales and gaming will likely increase next gen while console sales and gaming revenue will likely decrease next gen, especially as tablets become more and more like game consoles.

    SSD’s biggest advantages, as I mentioned earlier, is less wear and tear than the hard drive and faster loading/access times. Download the game to the hard drive once, use the SSD most of the time while gaming.

  80. phranctoast:

    Actually, it’s completely incomprehensible why anyone would want to cut out any percentage of their past audience. Of course, I’m only looking at it from a logical point of view. :)

    I don’t even think these rumors can be true or Microsoft is already throwing in the towel before the fight starts.

    “Smartphones and tablets now represent…….especially as tablets become more and more like game consoles.”

    Irrelevant to the topic at hand and again, a poor representation of the home internet infrastructure. You’re talking the future within the next seven years, yet MS plans on releasing a console a large percentage of their past audience will be dark from by the end of this year.
    Oh. BTW, check out Sessler interviewing Pachter. Pachter makes mentions of some of the things you do, and it’s a very good interview.

    ” Download the game to the hard drive once, use the SSD most of the time while gaming.”

    Not without it’s possibilities or merits, however in this case they would need for than 8GB of Flash SSD memory. Games are only increasing in size. Could this be what MS has in store?

  81. Roca.:

    why in hell would a XBL Silver member connect their Xbox online?

  82. phranctoast:

    “why in hell would a XBL Silver member connect their Xbox online?”

    DLC, XBLA, Xbox video, Game Room, Achievements, and Basic online chat not in games.

  83. CarlB:

    If a percentage of the past audience represents more loss in used games sales than profit in new game sales then it’s not that hard to fathom at all.

    That said, I remain neutral on the rumor, as even though they could still profit greatly, digital sales are growing enough to let physical retail fizzle out on it’s own next gen.

    The truth is we don’t know what “MS plans” at this point, so let’s hold out on pursuing this conversation until we do.

    “Irrelevant to the topic at hand and again, a poor representation of the home internet infrastructure.”

    It’s relevant to the game industry as a whole, and I included five quotes that do represent home internet infrastructure. If those are not good enough:

    “90% of US households with computers have broadband… At the end of second quarter of 2012, there were a total of 80.33 million broadband subscribers in the U.S.”

    http://gigaom.com/2012/09/04/90-of-us-households-with-computers-have-broadband/

    As of 2010 there were ~115M “households” in the U.S. according the U.S. Census Bureau.
    h**p://www.statisticbrain.com/u-s-household-statistics/

    Taken together, that means between 60-70% not only have internet, but broadband internet.

    As for SSHD hybrids next gen, I think there is a possibility both Sony and Microsoft could use them, if not for launch hardware, then “slim” models later on.

  84. CarlB:

    From 2011:

    “Seventy percent of urban households and 60 percent of rural households accessed broadband Internet service last year.”

    http://www.mnn.com/green-tech/computers/stories/up-to-10-percent-of-us-homes-lack-basic-broadband-internet

  85. phranctoast:

    “If a percentage of the past audience represents more loss in used games sales than profit in new game sales then it’s not that hard to fathom at all.”

    Or maybe they’re bought by software pirates. Yeah..We can speculate until the cows come home…

    “The truth is we don’t know what “MS plans” at this point, so let’s hold out on pursuing this conversation until we do. ”

    Probably a smart move, but I always did highlight that everything so far is rumor as of now.

    “Taken together, that means between 60-70% not only have internet, but broadband internet.

    And in this instance 30% without. Like I said before, it makes no sense to cut out any percentage of your past audience. While these numbers are nice and represent NA, the 360 was sold to other countries that may not have the broadband infrastructure we do. Having an always on console eliminates them right off the bat.

    Of course.. Just rumor though.

    The latest rumor has the system not allowing SP games after a disconnect of 3 minutes.

  86. phranctoast:

    Ok.. Latest, Latest rumor.

    http://www.vgleaks.com/microsoft-xbox-roadmap-2013/
    We have received new information about the latest Xbox Roadmap. Our source unveils new details for Durango, Xbox mini and the Microsoft strategy; moreover we don’t forget Kinect 2.0.

    Microsoft expands its Xbox brand

    Getting to the point there are going to be two console as part of the redesigned “Xbox Line” of products. A repackaged and reoriented Xbox 360 unit and the new “Durango” gaming console, both designed to compete with more than Sony in gaming, but against Apple as well.

    When the Durango (game machine) launches, it will not support backwards compatibility for 360 games out of the box. Instead, this functionality will come from the other unit that will be networked with the Durango to provide this (not unlike the DVD add-on for the original Xbox).

    The purpose of the smaller Xbox unit is to compete with Apple TV, but also provides XBLA and 360 game support which will give it an edge over Apple TV. The rumors of “always online required” comes from the smaller Xbox unit which may not have a disc drive and like Apple TV it would require a network connection and internet to provide any real functionality. It may be possible they will design both consoles to be stackable.

    Durango itself will also always be online like any other device (correct with rumors), but it will not be a requirement to play local content and it will not prevent playing used games. Putting in an Xbox 360 disc into Durango will prompt the user to attach the supporting device that is sold separately. By separating the two devices and their functions it will ensure price competitiveness for both pieces of hardware. Microsoft’s delay in announcing these products from April goes more inline with not having a physical set of devices to show (among specification updates), which should be ready by May or June when this information is officially released.

    The price goal of the smaller Xbox is $149 or lower and it is likely to not have a disc drive and would require a network connection. Durango will be priced competitively according to PS4?s price.

    Kinect 2.0

    A different department within Xbox handles Kinect hardware and software. The focus was more on developing and networking both consoles with Kinect more of an after thought at that point, considering dealing with it would be less of an issue even with hardware changes to the main console hardware. Kinect isn’t the primary focus.

    The development kits required several pieces of hardware as to combine all “potential” hardware which may or may not be required to work with each other, which also includes the potential for any or all devices to required a network connection, which is where most of the “required” rumors are coming from.

  87. CarlB:

    “it makes no sense to cut out any percentage of your past audience.”

    The same argument could be made for no BC, but Sony still eventually decided to cut it.
    At some point, it simply makes more sense to move on and leave the less profitable minority behind.

    If the rumor ever holds true (this coming gen or the one after), it will only be because Microsoft has deemed it more profitable in the long run to take such actions.
    Again, I’m not saying they wouldn’t lose part of their audience (or that they will block used games), just that it would be a less profitable minority vice the more profitable majority.

    I see how it could work either way.

  88. CarlB:

    You’re right though, Pachter is pretty much reiterating what I’ve already said about mobile being able to replace consoles entirely within a matter of years (9:15)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=QP-KM7Quk94#t=555s

  89. phranctoast:

    So annoying. The site logged me off as I posted an everything was lost.

    Let me paraphrase.
    -(On BC)Yes, sony did so but still had a solution in place.

    -(On BC)This gen to next would be a better example as it also would need internet in place to work

    -All these companies proved to make some dumb decisions. MS is not immune to that.

    “I see how it could work either way.”

    Agreed… Just not…Yet for an “Always online only” console.

    While I did enjoy the interview, and thought Pachter handled it well, even being somewhat impressed that he does seem to game.
    I still have trouble taking what he says as gospel in anyway, even if he agrees with my point, due to the joke he’s made of himself so many times in the past.

    I think even you can be quoted taken a quote he made as being trivial in a discussion in a counter argument.

  90. CarlB:

    “Yes, sony did so but still had a solution in place.”

    I’m talking about what they did this gen, not what they might do next gen.

    There is a point of diminishing returns for these companies. We don’t like it because we don’t get everything we want the way we want it, but it works for the company’s bottom line in more ways than one.

    I never took what Pachter or anyone else has said in the past as “gospel”, I just comment off what I’ve observed, open to anything happening. I look at most of this stuff as trivial.

  91. CarlB:

    “Agreed… Just not…Yet for an ‘Always online only’ console.”

    I bringing this up about this a year or more ago… having an “always online only” as an option this gen. One SKU “always online”, the other being offline disc capable, which, if the latest rumors hold true, might indeed be what they are planning.

  92. CarlB:

    *remember*

  93. phranctoast:

    If it’s optional as in one of the choices of two SKU’s, than this is not a problem in the least.

    The lack of option, and by that, ignoring a decent percentage of your past userbase was my concern.

  94. CarlB:

    No, I don’t think it will be a concern.

    http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-04-11-microsofts-next-xbox-will-take-over-your-tv

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